[mikhael]

Originally posted by venom2506


they're probably 1 meter thick windows, and not glass anyway. maybe it's diamond windows

Diamond is a bad material for a window, if only because the lattice structure of the material does not stand up at all well to shearing stresses.

I think that the windows need to be disregarded--along with a lot of the tech descriptions.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by mikhael
You'll want pressure hatches about every 15 to 20 meters, Sandwich (basically about every other frame). During general quarters, all pressure hatches will be dogged tight (some will be dogged tight or dogged soft at all times).  One hull breach shouldn't be able to void more than a few localized spaces.

Roger that, although I think that most of those can be modeled inside any given corridor; I can't think of any reason why a simple pressure bulkhead would require a complete interruption of an internal ship's corridor.

Speaking of ship corridors, has anyone seen the RUN-16S.EXE movie that comes with the SOTY edition? You know, the one with that marine running through a GTVA (GTA?) ship corridor, Prometheus Handheld Edition strapped to his arm? It gives a very nice comprehensive glimpse at the interior of a ship. The corridor looks to be no more than 2.5 meters in height, but it's not square - it's a squashed hexagon, like the Krell designs in Forbidden Planet. I think I'll have to remake everything... again. Oh well.

Originally posted by mikhael
Also, you'll need more than a simple 1m between decks because of air requirments. On a sealed air system (like any wet navy ship or space ship) you have to be able to partition your ventilation system at least as well as you do your pressure spaces. Further, you've got to pressure seal your power and water runs for the same reason AND you have to be able to partition them as well.

Hmm... mind explaining further? I tend to be able to design things best when I have a comprehensive grasp of what they are supposed to do.

Originally posted by mikhael
Shrike: you don't have to overarmor the internal spaces, but you do have to make sure that you're protected from secondary explosion type weapons. A wet navy ship has a hard enough time with such weapons.  A void-navy is going to have more problems, because pressure loss is dangerous in more ways than mere waterloading--and far harder to control.

Secondary explosions that could occur on board a standard FS2 Fenris include: reactor fuel (whatever it is, it must be dangerous), the ventral rocket launcher's rocket storage racks, and the beam weapons' plasma ("Commence plasma core insertion."). Did I miss anything?

Originally posted by StrykeIX
See, this is why I always wanted to see an ingame missile with a mining drill warhead. Sure, fine, heavy armor will stop most things from getting in. But what are you gonna do once it DOES get in? I think some antitank missiles work on the same premise, boring into the armor and then blasting the inside.

Oh, you mean that 007 torpedo/drill in Tommorow Never Dies?

Originally posted by venom2506
Btw, FS2 armors must be pretty thick... Have you noticed what we 're thrwoing at them? Of course the Fenris is the weakest warship of the series, but just take the orion, ok, it's not a fenris, it's a destroyer, it's big , blablabla. Throw one of those antimater ( ANTIMATER FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!! ) bombs to it. The thing barely suffered. There must be more to it than special alloys...
In OTT I decided to make up some fluff to explain why a 30 meters long antimatter bomb can't destroy a punny 2 km long ship, when it could most likely blast Jupiter and all the surrounding area to hell along with it in real life.
Really, too bad the debris maps are not specifically drawn, would be a good occasion to see inside the ship ( think Starship trooper when the Roger Young is cut in half ).

Well, first of all, concerning the antimatter bomb, we have no idea how much of that bomb is just magnetic containment field generators, power cells and generators, backup systems, engine, etc. If you were talking about a fusion bomb, then yeah, we can compare it to the size of bombs today and say, "Whoa, that's one huge bomb!" But with antimatter we don't have an established base size for all the support equipment, so for all we know there might only be room for a teaspoon of antimatter in the Helios. We just can't know.

But regardless, I agree - there is something beyond collapsed mollybendum plating to those hulls - perhaps a variant on the ST: Enterprise's polarized hull plating - we saw that the Brits developed electrified armor a few months ago, after all.

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Are you going to take into account the windows on the skin when you make this?

Funny you should mention that, actually. The windows on the skin were the second thing I used to get a sense of scale, with the first being scaling the ship model up to 253 meters length in Rhino.

So yeah, notice how far down the windows go along the lower pylon (5 decks below the connection point or so), as well as the big-windowed corridor along the bottom of Engineering. I took both those into account, as well as the other areas with windows, of course.

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Hmmm - windows. They'd make a reasonably open, and obvious weak point on any armour...

You know those huge bulldozers the IDF has - 2 stories tall or so, and they always get shown demolishing terrorist houses or Arafat compounds? Well, as a branch of Combat Engineering (which I was), those dozers were stationed at my base. Their armour, while quite thick (MBT-grade) is actually not as strong as the ~12" thick glass windows they had.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Sandwich

Well, first of all, concerning the antimatter bomb, we have no idea how much of that bomb is just magnetic containment field generators, power cells and generators, backup systems, engine, etc. If you were talking about a fusion bomb, then yeah, we can compare it to the size of bombs today and say, "Whoa, that's one huge bomb!" But with antimatter we don't have an established base size for all the support equipment, so for all we know there might only be room for a teaspoon of antimatter in the Helios. We just can't know.
 

well, a teaspoon amount of antimatter is way enough to vaporize something much bigger than a sathanas, as far as I know...

and in FS1 the basic bombs are atomic bombs... you see where i'm going?

the FS ships are tough, much tougher than you could think at first glimpse...

[mikhael]

Originally posted by venom2506


well, a teaspoon amount of antimatter is way enough to vaporize something much bigger than a sathanas, as far as I know...

Actually, do a search of the forums, Venom. Shrike and I both sat down and worked out the energy release for a gram of iron annihilating with a gram of antiiron. It might be in the I-War fora. The results were in the kilotons, not the megatons. Even your weaker FS atomics will produce more "boom".

[Sandwich]

Mik and I had a little chat on ICQ, and he wanted me to post it:

[q]
[14:37.35 PM] Mikhael: I can't think of any reason why a simple pressure bulkhead would require a complete interruption of an internal ship's corridor.
[14:37.52 PM] Mikhael: um, that's like the very definition of a pressure bulkhead.
[14:38.09 PM] Mikhael: Its gotta interrupt the corridor AND the spaces beyond the corridor.
[14:38.27 PM] Sandwich: I didn't mean from an engineering standpoint, I meant from a modellers standpoint
[14:38.37 PM] Sandwich: Ahh...
[14:38.40 PM] Sandwich: hmm
[14:38.42 PM] Sandwich: true
[14:39.28 PM] Sandwich: well, with the soon-to-be-revamped squished hexagon corridors, I think I can have all the needed ducts and stuff wedged in the angles, no?
[14:42.57 PM] Mikhael: Possibly, if you're filling in the angles--which your picture doesn't show.
[14:43.38 PM] Mikhael: that IS a nicely formatted post though.
[14:44.27 PM] Sandwich: heheh
[14:44.39 PM] Mikhael: now:
[14:44.43 PM] Sandwich: and I didn't design those decks to be angular.... I'll have to redo them.
[14:45.02 PM] Mikhael: first segmented ventilation is the same as segmented pressure spaces and segmented passageways.
[14:45.23 PM] Mikhael: Its no good to pressure seal a room if the VENTILATION isn't likewise sealed off.
[14:45.39 PM] Mikhael: afterall, your escaping pressure would just go out thru the ventilation system.
[14:46.17 PM] Sandwich: right, but who's to say that there aren't seperate pressure seals insode the air ducts alone?
[14:46.36 PM] Mikhael: Exactly. That takes up a lot of room.
[14:46.53 PM] Mikhael: for secondary explosions, I'm talking about things like armor-piercing ordinance. The type of stuff that holes a ship, THEN detonates a serious charge, like an Exocet (I think)
[14:47.42 PM] Sandwich: yeah, but thankfully that doesn't exist in FS
[14:47.46 PM] Sandwich:
[14:48.13 PM] Mikhael: FS engineers just kinda forgot 200yrs of wet navy lessons?
[14:48.29 PM] Sandwich: No, Volition people did.
[14:49.34 PM] Mikhael: right. Don't think like a game designer (who are, afterall, the people who make a 14m fighter, then list its size as 28m)
[14:49.53 PM] Mikhael: If you're going to make a serious effort of it, think like a naval engineer.
[14:49.56 PM] Sandwich: hehehe
[14:50.31 PM] Sandwich: Well, that's what you're around for, right? I mean, I may have been a combat engineer in my military service, but we don't build, we blow up.
[/q]

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Sandwich
I wouldn't do it alone, mainly because I don't have an FPS of choice. But anyone's welcome to use it when I'm done.

Renegade? We'd only need to have a single deck, obviously, or two half-decks - there are quite a number of multi-level maps in UT, for instance, at the moment which are much larger than 150m from end to end. Anyway, it's a distant possibility at the moment, and off the topic for now.

(In reply to that ICQ log) Well, it's good we have you around then, isn't it Mik?

[Nico]

btw, there's that high poly fenris some dude posted a few weeks ago, maybe you shou:ld try and get the mesh from him?

[Stryke 9]

Oh, you mean that 007 torpedo/drill in Tommorow Never Dies?

Oh, shut up. I thought of that two full years before that movie came out, and they screwed it up, anyway.

[Nico]

some anime series have had that for years

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Setekh


Renegade? We'd only need to have a single deck, obviously, or two half-decks - there are quite a number of multi-level maps in UT, for instance, at the moment which are much larger than 150m from end to end. Anyway, it's a distant possibility at the moment, and off the topic for now.

Nahh, I was thinking more along the lines of Serious Sam - the engine could do Shivans just fine.

Originally posted by venom2506
btw, there's that high poly fenris some dude posted a few weeks ago, maybe you shou:ld try and get the mesh from him?

Bah - I have a feeling that the internal section will become high-poly enough without my adding a high poly exterior to it. But post a link or a pic, will ya? I think I missed that one.

Originally posted by StrykeIX


Oh, shut up. I thought of that two full years before that movie came out, and they screwed it up, anyway.

Nice pun.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by mikhael
Actually, do a search of the forums, Venom. Shrike and I both sat down and worked out the energy release for a gram of iron annihilating with a gram of antiiron. It might be in the I-War fora. The results were in the kilotons, not the megatons. Even your weaker FS atomics will produce more "boom".

One kilogram of AM fully annhilating one KG of normal matter releases 42.7 MT of energy, if memory serves.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Bah - I have a feeling that the internal section will become high-poly enough without my adding a high poly exterior to it. But post a link or a pic, will ya? I think I missed that one.

don't remember what thread it was,  but the thing looked awesome, pretty much finished as well, tho not mapped.

[NegspectahDek]

Now i know that isn't right.  A regular modern day fission bomb can release about that much energy and only a small fraction of the mass is converted to energy.  As soon as I find some, proof is forthcoming

Originally posted by Shrike
One kilogram of AM fully annhilating one KG of normal matter releases 42.7 MT of energy, if memory serves.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by NegspectahDek
Now i know that isn't right.  A regular modern day fission bomb can release about that much energy and only a small fraction of the mass is converted to energy.  As soon as I find some, proof is forthcoming

*smirks*

Bring it.  

[Sandwich]

Erm... can we have the megatonnage vs. kiltonnage discussion elsewhere?

[kasperl]

someone said he had a discusion about the energy yield of an AM warhead? where is it? (if you can find it)

[StratComm]

Well, if I remember my basic physics correctly, matter-antimatter anhilation has the highest mass to energy ratio of any known physical reaction, but not drastically so.  The trouble with the comparison to nuclear is that out of the reaction mass in a nuclear explosion, only something like .0000001% is converted to energy (I don't have a textbook in front of me, but that's a maximum estimate) so a really big bomb only converts a tiny amount of matter to energy.  The problem with AM weapons is that no more than a handful of atoms can be contained with any reliability.  A teaspoon full is WAY too much for a Helios to carry (lets say a Helios bomb is the size of a VW bug for scale purposes) because even if it was just a containment structure, it would only be able to hold perhaps 1 microgram of antimatter.  And that's assuming radical advances in technology.  For explosive scale, if a dollar bill were to anhilate itself with an equal amount of anti-matter, the resulting release of energy would be more than capable of incinerating the entire earth.  But then, so would two dollar bills suddenly converting themselves to energy.

[Sandwich]

Ok, back on topic... *ahem*

I've spent the day modifying the deck layout as follows:

- No open internal space is within 2 meters of the outside of the hull, to give plenty of room to armor.
- Most decks have 1.5 meters between them.
- The decks line up more completely with the external windows on the textures, with a few exceptions.

I also modeled a bit of internal corridor based on that movie I mentioned earlier. Here's the reference pics:





And here's the thing I whipped together:


Obviously not complete by any means, but I'm not going to work on it any more at the moment.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Ok, back on topic... *ahem*

Poor Sandwich - everyone's derailing his thread.

...

Nice work.

[Stryke 9]

Not bad... and, you know, it's unlikely that every corridor would be a smoke-filled pipe-intensive industrial hallway. The ones frequently used would likely be somewhere between an office building and an actual seagoing vessel, with the odd gratuitous funky-looking SF thing thrown in. A bit simpler.