[Stryke 9]

That driving people into a panic with propoganda and then getting their representatives to sign something with the name "Patriot" on it blindly for fear that otherwise their careers will be ruined is not democratic, per se. I suppose you could make the argument that nobody is literally forced into doing it, but the same rationalization could be used to argue for legalizing fraud.

[PeachE]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
it's sorta the legal equivalent of a WIP- a memo being passed around the Attorney General's office

that's what i'm sayin.. so what's the big deal? nobody's going to pass this. it's probably the brainchild of some back-office lackey who hasn't slept in a month.

i mean, with phrases like "Aliens all too frequently flaunt the requirements of the Immigration and Nationality Act because the statute does not include effective criminal deterrence" (Sec 502), it will never, not in a million ****ing years, get past the democrats in congress. immigrants are their bread and ****ing butter.

so what if somebody dreamt this thing up as a WIP memo. there's probably equally frightening incomplete bills collecting dust in democrat offices.

doesn't mean anything will ever come of it..

[Stryke 9]

Except that these days, what Bush wants, Bush gets. And the idea that Ashcroft could seriously consider this crap basically just confirms that he's a psychotic fascist bastard of the sort who has no place in any sane government. I mean, really. Look at it! Some of the bits in there are quite literally insane!

And get the party lines thing out of your head, boy. I don't care if there are insane Democrats, too- in fact, I know there are. I like them, if anything, even less than the Republicans- goddamn wishy-washy bastards don't even have the balls to be thoroughly evil like the current administation, and just come sorta halfway. But there are no Democrats this bad in power, or I'd be complaining about them, too.

[PeachE]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
But there are no Democrats this bad in power, or I'd be complaining about them, too.

ummm.. i don't know about you, bud i didn't see an author credit. who says this was written by anyone in power? as i said, probably just some back office asshole dreaming up foolish ideas.

I mean, really. Look at it! Some of the bits in there are quite literally insane!

oh, i've read quite a bit of it already. and i have to agree. but..

Except that these days, what Bush wants, Bush gets. And the idea that Ashcroft could seriously consider this crap basically just confirms that he's a psychotic fascist bastard of the sort who has no place in any sane government.

ahem.. show me anything that says that Bush wants this.. or that he has ever even seen this document.. for that matter, while i wouldn't really doubt it, show me something that says Ashcroft is seriously considerring it..

[Stryke 9]

Well, we'll see in the news, if it's there. It'd be exceedingly hard for this sort of thing to be circulated in Ashcroft's department, giving Ashcroft substantially greater powers, without him being aware of it, and it'd be just as unlikely that he'd know about it and Bush wouldn't. Besides which, some of the background to it suggests that... what the ****. I'll let the papers and the radio talk for me- I think at this point it's pretty likely to be there tomorrow, unless something really freaky's goin' on and it is an extremely well-done hoax, in which case the creator's still an asshole for making **** up...

[PeachE]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
and it'd be just as unlikely that he'd know about it and Bush wouldn't.

i find it extremely likely that (with all of the thousands of memos and bills and other various documents floating around Bush and his cabinet) Bush would never get a chance to read the vast majority of them. and i would extend that to Ashcroft as well. They have people that filter out all the day-to-day **** and outlandishness so they can focus on what's important.

[Stryke 9]

This ain't exactly day-to-day, now is it? Something about, I dunno, better sewer cleaning standards, yeah, I'd agree with you, but not this ****.

[PeachE]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
This ain't exactly day-to-day, now is it?

hence, outlandishness.
i doubt very much this would have ever hit Bush's desk if not for the probablity that the press will make a big thing of it.

you said so yourself, Work In Progress memo-type document. it's just an idea someone's throwing around. there's no reason to think anything would have ever come of it.

[PeachE]

not to mention the fact that it's still probably a fake.

[Falcon X]

Not to mention this administration is not like Carter's.  If good ol' Jimmy was in office then I'd guarentee he would have seen it.  He was a control freak to a fault.  (not saying he's bad, but that's not a good leader).  Bush takes the Reagan stance... he hires good people for a reason... so he doesn't have to do everything... coordinates.  That in any place (I'm not praising bush) is the ideal of a good leader.  He's not in the mud of everything.... does a general fire the guns?  Nope.

[Bobboau]

I ask you, if this were to land on Bush's desk, do you think he would be able to understand two words on it?

Lord Ashcroft on the other hand...
I do not like him
(Ashcroft, that name is just so evil sounding it's hard to beleve it isn't made up)

I have many times suported Bush and his war, but I should point out I have never realy liked him and in fact up untill 9/11 I wanted Gore, not becase I thought he was a better presedent but becase he scared me less,
there is no Democrat that currently I like, most of them seem to just be coniveing, not realy doing much more than playing lip survice to the people in suport of the war, republicans seem to realy want it
and most Republicans have at least one thing I am fundementaly oposed to (I should point out that the only person I realy like is McCain(R S AZ), though there are many things I disagree with from him)
I wish the democrats would just help with the war rather than just obstruct, so then I could like them again

[Stryke 9]

Ach, or at least come up with some idea of their own. There are plenty of better plans than shooting up every Arab Bush sets eye on, you'd THINK it wouldn't be so hard to work one out and then actually unite to work for it, instead of prattling on.

I seriously am starting to wonder if the Dems are TRYING to lose everything? I mean- Lieberman? Ugh!

[Bobboau]

ya I don't think they could do worse if they tried, I mean even if they are going to give an anti-war aproch they could do a much better job of it than just being "were opposed to the war becase Bush is in suport of it" wich is what it seems like to me, if they wanted to do some damage then they would float some bills that would ban all american oil companies from doing direct bussnes in future Iraq, this would silence the cries that we were in it for the oil and the standard party reaction would cause Bush to fight it giveing the dems some much needed amunition

[Stryke 9]

By now, I don't think they have any political say-so at any rate.

[Falcon X]

Do I think he could understand it?  Yes.  Why do you assume someone that can't understand something when he is not eloquent or can't speak well?  That is the dumbest move you'll ever make.

[Bobboau]

becase he does not to me seem like a law type person

as much as I agree with the war policy on most other things I still think he's an idiot, though well advised

[PeachE]

everybody thought Reagan was stupid too. but look back at his record. i mean, really look at it. he got nearly everything he wanted... stupid people just can't do that..

[Falcon X]

Why do you think he's an idiot?  Accent?  Or because some of his slip ups during public speaking.

[Falcon X]

It can also be an asset to be under-estimated.  Look at the most recent election.  The Dems got waxed in historical terms.

[Stryke 9]

No, but stupid puppets can. He's clearly proven that he doesn't really understand the bills he keeps pushing, never mind cares about them- he's just the salesman. Hell, look at the State of the Union speech- fumbling and stumbling through, utterly unconvincing to the point where even he musta understood that he was being patronized by the standing ovation every other word, and then suddenly, bam! Something he actually gives a **** about, and can grasp intellectually (war), and he's talking straight outta a movie set. It was fantastic.

There's nothing particularly wrong with him being just a tool (personally I think a dozen smart people can handle a country a good bit better than one), there's just something wrong with the people he's a tool of.