[IceFire]

As long as nobody mentions Netscape were ok! (damn crapy piece of...right......)

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by Kazan


im not saying it's great JUST BECAUSE IT'S OPEN SOURCE - if you think that was my reasoning then you're one hell of a moron

Perhaps the reason these conclusions are made is because there is no reasoning at all <<--- HINT

[Stealth]

go Kazan

[Terorist]

Originally posted by Ryx
mmm tabbed windows (yes, Opera has this too).

Trying... not... to... burst...
When I, long time ago, first tried some version of Opera (and it's tabbed browsing) Netscape was relatively fresh and everyone's favourite over IE.
Mozilla did not exist. It wouldn't for many years... Opera is the leader that others copy - Mozilla got tabs, mouse gestures and others from them, to count the most recent ones.

And no, I'm not saying that they shouldn't, they need to, if they're ever going to get anywhere near Opera's excellence.

[castor]

Wow! Mozilla vs Opera wars now?

Riight.. I sense some frustration here ..

[Stryke 9]

Uh... MACs are the most famous non-Windows OS. Then it's probably a toss-up between UNIX, Linux, and OS2. Or DOS, if you're counting obsolete software.

[Admiral LSD]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
Uh... MACs are the most famous non-Windows OS. Then it's probably a toss-up between UNIX, Linux, and OS2. Or DOS, if you're counting obsolete software.

True and I should have remembered that, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. ATi is what you use when you don't want to use nVidia, never mind the fact the first decent product they've made in years was the Radeon 9700. Red Hat Linux is the first OS for i386 compatibles you move to if you don't want to use Windows, never mind the fact the open source/free software philosophy is better displayed in other Linux distributions like Debian (who even go so far as to use the correct name "GNU/Linux") and Slackware and even non-Linux OS's like FreeBSD. Given Kazan's outspoken defence of both those things, it wasn't a long stretch to assume he'd defend Mozilla for similar reasons. The fact it's open source itself was a bonus really.

Originally posted by IceFire
As long as nobody mentions Netscape were ok! (damn crapy piece of...right......)

Mosaic -> Netscape -> Mozilla
see the trend there?

[Kamikaze]

Gah, it almost doesn't matter what web browser you use in a linux environment anyway. They all almost never crash and work pretty much the same (in windows it's a different story, I won't go there)

Oh and Go Lynx!

[Admiral LSD]

Originally posted by Kamikaze
Oh and Go Lynx!

heh, I spent much of the eight weeks it took me to compile the XFree86 and GNOME environment on my old Pentium II at text consoles (usually because I'd screwed over X and had to recompile from scratch, a process that took and age and a half) and did a fair amount of browsing in Links and let me tell you, text browsing is not fun...

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by Admiral LSD

even non-Linux OS's like FreeBSD.

what about open VMS?

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Admiral LSD


Opera had it first, Mozilla borrowed it and didn't implement it even half as well.

Pardon, but AFAIK, you're wrong (re: tabbed browsing). Granted, I don't know when Opera first introduced tabbed browsing (not MDI - Multiple Document Interface, mind you), but I know that NetCaptor had a tabbed interface as early as 1999.

[Kamikaze]

I don't know precisely when Opera had tabbed windows, but I do know that Opera started out in 1994, 5 years before Netcaptor had tabbed windows. (first public version was a bit later, after 1995)

Source: http://www.markschenk.com/opera/history.html

BTW: screens of one of the original Opera builds, before Opera 2.0 http://www.igd.fhg.de/archive/1995_www95/proceedings/posters/31/

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Kamikaze
I don't know precisely when Opera had tabbed windows, but I do know that Opera started out in 1994, 5 years before Netcaptor had tabbed windows. (first public version was a bit later, after 1995)

Source: http://www.markschenk.com/opera/history.html

BTW: screens of one of the original Opera builds, before Opera 2.0 http://www.igd.fhg.de/archive/1995_www95/proceedings/posters/31/

Yeah, Opera started out with a MDI (which was and still is awkward), but no tabs. That's why I didn't stick with it way back in 95.

[Admiral LSD]

Tabs, MDI same difference. The MDI is just a much better way of doing it as it's more tightly integrated with the program. Even with tabs, Moz still acts like an SDI browser, ie pressing Ctrl-N opens a whole new browser window (in Opera, it adds another window to the MDI) and clicking a link that opens a new window will do just that (again, Opera will add a new window to the MDI and load the page in it) and is extremely annoying because of it. You can even get the same "tabbed" effect (again, a fair while before Moz had it) by moving the Page bar to the top of the screen, something I've been doing the whole time I've used it as having it on the bottom kept interfering with my auto-hidden Start bar.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Admiral LSD
Tabs, MDI same difference. The MDI is just a much better way of doing it as it's more tightly integrated with the program. Even with tabs, Moz still acts like an SDI browser, ie pressing Ctrl-N opens a whole new browser window (in Opera, it adds another window to the MDI) and clicking a link that opens a new window will do just that (again, Opera will add a new window to the MDI and load the page in it) and is extremely annoying because of it. You can even get the same "tabbed" effect (again, a fair while before Moz had it) by moving the Page bar to the top of the screen, something I've been doing the whole time I've used it as having it on the bottom kept interfering with my auto-hidden Start bar.

No, it isn't the same difference. Lookit the latest version of MS Word. That program has, in the past, used MDI consistantly - one program window, but multiple child windows. Now, with the program grouping of WinXP, MS has made Word into what is essentially a SDI (not the Strategic Defense Initiative...! ). Thus every document has its own window (incedentally occupying more taskbar space on non-XP OSes, such as the venerable Win2k), and they are all grouped into a single taskbar button in XP.

Why did MS make that change? I haven't the foggiest, but there must have been a good reason for it, right?



Anyways, the point is that MDI is generally much more cluttered than tabs - just look at pre-tabs Opera screenies to see what I mean. I mean, come on - how often do you right click on the windows taskbar and choose "Cascade Windows" or one of the window tiling options? You see, in essence, the taskbar, with its buttons for windows, is just another tabbed interface.

But yes, I agree with you that Mozilla's implementation of tabs is kinda weak. Personally, I get along just fine with it, since Mozilla provides the middle-mouse button option of clicking on any link to open it in a new tab. Yeah, I use that button almost exclusively when I want to follow a new link w/o leaving the current page, but imagine a situation where you're looking up all sorts of game tips for some game, and replying to a ton of threads in HLP at the same time. With Mozilla, you can have all the game tip pages be tabs in one window, and all the HLP stuff be tabs in another window. (Personally, I just use the same window all the time, but whatever).

So the only thing I want to know is exactly when Opera started using tabs for its MDI. Pre- or post- NetCaptor?

[Tiara]

*goes to create browser with a built in "protection" program*

"Protection" program: If you type anything bad about the browser a person with an axe will come to crash either your computer or chop off your head.

Name: AxeNet

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Tiara
*goes to create browser with a built in "protection" program*

"Protection" program: If you type anything bad about the browser a person with an axe will come to crash either your computer or chop off your head.

Name: AxeNet

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Sandwich

At least then their won't be these petty arguments. I mean, everyone likes something else better. Let them.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Tiara


At least then their won't be these petty arguments. I mean, everyone likes something else better. Let them.

And for my 5000th post:


Meh.

[Admiral LSD]

Originally posted by Sandwich


No, it isn't the same difference. Lookit the latest version of MS Word. That program has, in the past, used MDI consistantly - one program window, but multiple child windows. Now, with the program grouping of WinXP, MS has made Word into what is essentially a SDI (not the Strategic Defense Initiative...! ). Thus every document has its own window (incedentally occupying more taskbar space on non-XP OSes, such as the venerable Win2k), and they are all grouped into a single taskbar button in XP.

Why did MS make that change? I haven't the foggiest, but there must have been a good reason for it, right?

FYI, the MDI was taken out of Word in what would have been about version 9 (Word 2000) if not earlier, which was released about 2-3 years before XP. Admittedly, XP was being thought about then, 2000 is simply a rough-hewn, half-finished build of it released to meet a deadline but that doesn't make it any more valid an example.

Anyways, the point is that MDI is generally much more cluttered than tabs - just look at pre-tabs Opera screenies to see what I mean. I mean, come on - how often do you right click on the windows taskbar and choose "Cascade Windows" or one of the window tiling options?

It's been improved since then. I only started using Opera seriously at about version 5 and it was no more cluttered than anything else. I've never needed to use any of the Window tiling options as I could generally see what was loaded in each Window because it was clearly labelled on it's associate page bar (which worked *exactly* like the Windows taskbar) button. Mozilla's tabs were far more cluttered than Opera's MDI as they could be spread across multiple Windows.

But yes, I agree with you that Mozilla's implementation of tabs is kinda weak. Personally, I get along just fine with it, since Mozilla provides the middle-mouse button option of clicking on any link to open it in a new tab. Yeah, I use that button almost exclusively when I want to follow a new link w/o leaving the current page, but imagine a situation where you're looking up all sorts of game tips for some game, and replying to a ton of threads in HLP at the same time. With Mozilla, you can have all the game tip pages be tabs in one window, and all the HLP stuff be tabs in another window. (Personally, I just use the same window all the time, but whatever).

But using the middle mouse button is nowhere near as easy as just clicking the link and having it open in a new tab automatically (which I understand can be added through extensions but that isn't the point, Opera works this way out of the box) and neither is having to remember to use Ctrl-T to open a new tab. I've never had a problem in the past with the way Opera groups open windows in the Page bar. It's no worse than having a Windows taskbar filled to the gills with buttons. Opera 7 allows me to move the buttons around but I've never really used it as I still don't see the need.

You see, in essence, the taskbar, with its buttons for windows, is just another tabbed interface.

And since Opera had it before any other browser, including NetCaptor, I'll take that as a concession.

So the only thing I want to know is exactly when Opera started using tabs for its MDI. Pre- or post- NetCaptor?

The first time I saw the tab metaphor used in Opera was only quite recently, in version 7 which was only released in the last 6-8 months. However, it was just a new look to the same MDI Opera's had forever meaning it still predates Netcaptor by several years.