Author Topic: The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)  (Read 22109 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline diamondgeezer

The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
I've been thinking about the suggestion that the 'real world' is in fact part of the Matrix, and allows the minority of people who resist to believe that they are free. I disagree with this, based mainly on the behaviour of the Agents in the two films.

Judging by how the Agents behave towards one another, it seems quite clear that they at least believe they're fighting a real war. Why else would they muck about with a human traitor? And the conversation they have when Trinity escapes: "She got out"... I'm sure the Agents wouldn't be so concerned with chasing down free humans like Trinity if the real world was just a part of the Matrix. Of course it's possible that they're being tricked as well, programmed to believe that Zion is real when in fact it is part of the Matirx in order to put on a convining show for the 'free' humans, but I don't think so. More likely, it's just mind games to try and **** with Neo's head :nod:

 

Offline Dark_4ce

  • GTVA comedy relief
  • 27
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Yeah, I used to be a Matrix in a Matrix theory. Because it answered a lot of questions. Even the whole agents thing. Basically they are still restricted to the rules the matrix gives them. So what they're told is to them "truth" when in fact not. BUT...

I don't like the theory, so I've started to believe that the Real World is just that. Real. But the Machines still have managed to control Zion as a place of Exile for the 1% of humans who don't accept the program. But they are still kept in check. If they see that the new version of the matrix is starting to falter thus creating the possibility of "the one" they go to plan B again. Kill everyone in Zion so that they won't know the truth, and orchestrate this whole game for the one to play, so that in the end he will make the choice to pick the few humans from the matrix and start zion a new thus perpetuating the cycle once again, so that the matrix can again see if it got its virtual world correct. If people don't reject it anymore, then the matrix has succeeded, and zion can be destroyed forever. But if not, it will always have a place for the exiles, so that it can keep them safe.

But the agents. If the matrix knows about Zion, why do agents try and stop the rebels. Well, maybe the Matrix tries to keep the rebels from tampering too much so it polices it with agents. It tells the agents only what they need to hear, so they do their job without question. So that it can keep rebel tampering to a minimum but still keeping the facade up for the rebels that they are free, even though they could be destroyed at any time.

But what seems to be the case here is that for every matrix that has been made, sentient programs have always jumped from one version to next as exiles themselves. Oracle, The marovingian, the twins, so on and so forth. And finally in this latest version there seems to be now too many sentient programs not wanting deletion, so in a sence theres a internal civil war going on as well. These programs have learned what it is to be human, and long for it, but know they can never have it. So some at least try to help the humans in it.

So as we see in Reloaded, we got a whole bunch of programs helping Neo in one way or other. The oracle, the key maker, Persephone. So, it can be seen that all is not well in the matrix. The architech ofcourse seemed very sure of himself, but if you think about it, he was either scared ****less that neo got so far so the only thing he could think of is to mind f*** Neo, in hopes of not getting killed. Or the architech was only acting normal because he has had no human contact. So he just blabs out stuff just as a program dispalys information. It says what will happen, but nothing can never be sure. It says Zion will be destroyed. But in truth it doesen't know that. But it thinks it does. And thats where the matrix does a mistake. It actually allows the choice, thinking that it doesen't matter what you do, because things are pre determined. Fate so to speak. Fate it itself has created for the people in the matrix. Becuase everything is coded before hand. But choice is what can brake fate. If a person knows his fate, he can change it.

This can connect to the first matrix where Neo first talks to the Oracle. Neo didn't like fate because he didn't like the feeling of not being in control of his life. So he likes choice. And the oracle even gave a very shrewd demostration of the Matrix's use of fate when she said "Don't worry about the vase." so Neo turns around and brakes it and said he was sorry. Then the Oracle smiles and says something like "What will really bake your noodle later on, is would you have broken it if I didn't say anything?"

So Neo was manipulated. He didn't realise that fate is only what is given in front of you, and you are the one to choose from it. Like morpheus said "Theres a difference in knowing the path, and walking the path." Life is what you make of it. You accept what is given to you, or you don't. A choice. But as we see the matrix hasn't grasped the concept. Some programs have because they've been amongst humans. But others who have been as long still dont. Like the Merovingian's whole causality speech. He thinks he knows what he's talking about, but he doesent. He still thinks like the mainframe. He thinks Cause and effect applies to human psychology too. So therefore it thinks humans can be manipulated. Becuase it thinks if it gives them a cause, they'll do something as an effect. Thus controlling them. Example: Cause= You jump off a roof. Effect= You fall to the ground and die. But the rebels have basically made the choice not to believe in the matrix rules, so they can "bend" the rules. So cause and effect doesen't apply to that anymore.

But you can't outright deny that it has worked. They still manage to control the humans in the matrix for the majority. Just like a magician controls an audience. They believe what they see, beucause the humans believe their eyes don't decieve. But if the audience can see how the magician does his trick. The next time he does it, they will know it and not believe it. So the matrix uses the fact that people are born in the matrix to its advantage. The humans will believe their world. Most of the time.

So in conclusion. The matrix believes it can control the humans that are hardwired, with the facade or reality. And it thinks it can control the freed humans with the facade of fate. The matrix is very smart. And thats where lies its largest flaw. It isn't human. It isn't humble. It doesen't savor the mystery. It believes everything can be explained by some mathematical calculation. Cause and effect, blah blah. When in the end, all it boils down to is the choices we make and the hope we keep. *sniff*

Ok. I don't think I've ranted like this for a while. Man... I wrote so much. Hope it makes sence to you guys. :D

*head explodes... Hopefully for the last time.*
I have returned... Again...

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

  • Node Warrior
  • 27
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
good post. And i think it's on the ball too.
It came from outer space! What? Dunno, but it's going back on the next flight!
Proud member of Hard Light Productions. The last, best hope for Freespace...
:ha:

 

Offline Hudzy

  • Apollo Pilot
  • 28
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
good post. And i think it's on the ball too.


Sounds good to me. :nod:

 

Offline diamondgeezer

The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Wow. That was one hell of a post. Good reading, I might add :nod:

 

Offline Tiara

  • Mrs. T, foo'!
  • 210
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Yeah good reading, but most of it is still speculation.

Ow, and btw, get Enter the Matrix! Cool game with a exclusive Matrix: Revolutions movie when you finish it. By the looks of it, it will be a nice part ;)
I AM GOD! AND I SHALL SMITE THEE!



...because I can :drevil:

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Game seemed uber-meh to me. Felt pretty unpolished to me, but then again, its funner on hard.

4ce: :yes:
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Wow. That was one hell of a post. Good reading, I might add :nod:
I second that... not sure if I agree with it completely, but that's just a "wait and see what the 3rd movie shows us" thing. :p
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Tiara

  • Mrs. T, foo'!
  • 210
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Game seemed uber-meh to me. Felt pretty unpolished to me, but then again, its funner on hard.

4ce: :yes:

They might've rushed it a wee bit, but still a very unique game ;) I liked the part where you can hack into the Matrix
I AM GOD! AND I SHALL SMITE THEE!



...because I can :drevil:

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara

They might've rushed it a wee bit, but still a very unique game ;) I liked the part where you can hack into the Matrix


true. I just felt like dying or spooning my eyes out during the car/flying levels though. :blah:
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Tiara

  • Mrs. T, foo'!
  • 210
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar


true. I just felt like dying or spooning my eyes out during the car/flying levels though. :blah:

As Niobe it was... doable, but as Ghost... ARGH! Niobe AI can't drive damnit!

It ran into the same pillar 6 times! I mean.... come on!
I AM GOD! AND I SHALL SMITE THEE!



...because I can :drevil:

 

Offline Mr. Vega

  • Your Node Is Mine
  • 28
  • The ticket to the future is always blank
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by Dark_4ce
It says what will happen, but nothing can never be sure. It says Zion will be destroyed. But in truth it doesen't know that. But it thinks it does. And thats where the matrix does a mistake. It actually allows the choice, thinking that it doesen't matter what you do, because things are pre determined. Fate so to speak. Fate it itself has created for the people in the matrix. Becuase everything is coded before hand. But choice is what can brake fate. If a person knows his fate, he can change it.


…which is also cause and effect. Only now there at least 2 possibilities. The architect then probably believed Neo’s emotion would force him to make a specific choice.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Dark_4ce

  • GTVA comedy relief
  • 27
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Yeah, you got a point. The architech probably saw the way Neo has developed as "the one" and has calculated all the different ways he will react to the information he is given. So perhaps all the answers are there, but still the Matrix can never be sure which answer Neo will choose from. So the architech calculated which answers Neo will mostly likely make and picked the one one with the highest percentage. But still, he can't really be sure if Neo will do it. So he might have tried to enforce the choice he believed Neo would pick with the whole "You know what to do cause you allready decided" ploy. But it might have backfired. Or might not have. So we gotta wait to see what happens in Revolutions. But its still about choice in the end. We heaven't seen anything that would show that the Matrix has done any choosing. It has just followed a rutine. Build the matrix, make sure it works, have room for percentage of non-believers, if matrix fails, goto Plan B. Start over, learning from past mistakes.

Over and over.

This is slightly echoed in the little discussion between Neo and the old guy at Zion in the power plant where they look at all the machines. Neo says that they have the choice to turn them all off if they wanted to. But the old guy said that they would have to take into account all the damage that would do, so in fact, they don't have a choice, because if they did decide to turn them off, they'd die. So the matrix uses the same kind of thinking. Believing that humans would see the concequences of the choices and pick the one that would cause least damage. Like when the architech said that the previous Ones always picked the human race instead. And by mentioning it, is also a way of coercing Neo to pick it. But Neo had hope as well. So he picked the latter. to save Trininty.

We can trace this back to the 1st matrix again when Neo goes to save Morpheus. Tank says its suicide and its never been done before. And Neo says "thats why its going to work." Neo had hope as well as the fact that the matrix never saw it coming. It never calculated that a human would risk so much if it knew it was the One, to go and save a crew mate who was of less value. Neo didn't have to save morpheus, they could have just pulled the plug and things would have gone on. But by saving morpheus, I guess the matrix was thrown off balance a bit. Maybe just enough to alow Neo to reach his elightened state as the Matrix was still trying to figure out what the hell went wrong.

Yeah... There I go again... Man, I should watch the first movie again to see what else there is. This is all just coming from the top of my head...
I have returned... Again...

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Just watched the real thing - it was quite late in Hungary - (by the way j-pop rocks, it fits darn good with Matrix actually *or did I watch too much Serila Experiments Lain - well if you thout MRel was a mind**** you ain't seen anything yet).
(They actually dubbed it! - and it was one of the few good dubs I ever saw in cinema - the rest were done by MTV1/MTV2 *national channels* 20 years ago, all the other dubs are ****ed up nowadays).
What people don't seem to catch is that it isn't the cycle that the system wants. What the architect aspired to create a structure for eternity - so the system does everything it can to do so - it hunts down as much of that 1% as it can.
I think the Oracle was the true mother of the Matrix - but in the process she got too involved with humans until she could no longer distance herself from them - and she discovered the fact that choice has on people.
This lead to the anomaly - the system was running superb - but the anomaly kept increasing like enthropy.
The system isn't in control of either Zion or its people. It can't conrolt the anomaly - but it can predict it.

Even if a One fails nothings happens - another one will come.
If Zion gets annihilated in the process-they have truly won- if another One arises, he may free some of the people - the cycle begins anew.

So in the end they managed to create the best Matrix - but the anomaly that enabled them to do so is beyond their grasp. All that the machines can do is prolong the anomaly's rise.

It seems that the architect couldn't escape fate itself - his worlds are sentenced to end.

I pretty much agree with waht Dark_4ce said except for that being in control.
The machines are not in control - they simply have the advantage of being able to predict, so they are always the more prepared part.

As for the Smith thing - he's jsut another anomaly. It seems more and more anomalies are intoduced into each incarnation of the Matrix, and they are forced to evolve throughout the process.
So in the end beside the evolution of the Ones they are allowed to live - just for the sake that they may come up with something that could counter the anomaly.
That's the same reason why the Ones are allowed to develop - they are the holders of the anomaly, and theri very person could lead to the understanding and contol of the anomaly.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

  • Node Warrior
  • 27
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara

As Niobe it was... doable, but as Ghost... ARGH! Niobe AI can't drive damnit!

It ran into the same pillar 6 times! I mean.... come on!


:wtf: They have a Lady Di AI?
It came from outer space! What? Dunno, but it's going back on the next flight!
Proud member of Hard Light Productions. The last, best hope for Freespace...
:ha:

 

Offline diamondgeezer

The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Dark_4ce: Dude, you're a genius. I'm e-mailing your posts to my Matrix-loving friends. Give us more!

Ivan: Harsh

Quote
Originally posted by Flaser
That's the same reason why the Ones are allowed to develop - they are the holders of the anomaly, and theri very person could lead to the understanding and contol of the anomaly.

Oh God... It's Dark City all over again :shaking:
« Last Edit: May 29, 2003, 11:50:05 am by 170 »

 

Offline Tiara

  • Mrs. T, foo'!
  • 210
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


:wtf: They have a Lady Di AI?

:lol:

No, it was far worse :p
I AM GOD! AND I SHALL SMITE THEE!



...because I can :drevil:

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Oh God... It's Dark City all over again :shaking:


The Matrix IS Dark City all over again :lol: Didn't you notice the similarities before? :lol:
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Dark_4ce

  • GTVA comedy relief
  • 27
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Heres a little update on my theory on why the matrix allows for a Zion to be made each time the one is created. Watching Reloaded again I've noticed something more in what the Architech said. He said that Neo was a systemic anomaly, creating anomalies even in the most simplistic equations. Basically put, he's like a virus, breaking down the matrix. But I think its more with what he DOES that is the virus. What he's showing the people inside the matrix something they've never seen before, so they begin to question the matrix. And once these people question the matrix, the pass it on and so forth, creating a chain reaction that could destroy the entire matrix. So they exile the humans to zion, not only because they don't accept the program anymore, but because they are risk to the whole as well, they can spread the HOPE as well. And when things get too risky, they wipe them out entirely. Yet another reason and way for the matrix to control the people.

On a another topic, the mother of the matrix. I don't think its the Oracle. When Neo even replied with "The oracle" the architech went "Oh please." As if he thought Neo couldn't be serious. Who I think might be the Mother could very well be Persephone. She is an intuitive program associated with the Maerovingian who seems to believe he knows how the human mind works. But as you see him give his speech, you can see Persephone even look at the marovingian in a slightly sad way as if she was thinking "If only he knew how wrong he is."

This could be a reason why she helps Neo and Co. As for the kissing part... Well, if she was the mother, she probably created Neo in a way. She was the one who gave emotions to people. So maybe she wanted to try what her work was like. I dunno really. Or it could just be that she was really lonely.

Then theres the Key Maker. Well, I'm still trying to fit him in somewhere. He just seems to be someone who seems handy in getting the good guys out of a bad situation. Maybe thats all he really is. A cheat. As in a game cheat. The guy with all the keys to get them out.

Yeah, Dark City is VERY much like the Matrix. They even used many of the same sets, and even the whole dark feel and coloration is the same. But the goals of the enemies are different. Matrix was for the machines to keep things as they are and get rid of the anomaly or atleast then use it to their advantage. In Dark City, their whole goal was to find the one! The whole city was created for them to see what makes human minds tick. Both really good movies though. :D
I have returned... Again...

 

Offline Tiara

  • Mrs. T, foo'!
  • 210
The Matrix Reloaded (Review Thread)
Quote
Originally posted by Dark_4ce
Heres a little update on my theory on why the matrix allows for a Zion to be made each time the one is created. Watching Reloaded again I've noticed something more in what the Architech said. He said that Neo was a systemic anomaly, creating anomalies even in the most simplistic equations. Basically put, he's like a virus, breaking down the matrix. But I think its more with what he DOES that is the virus. What he's showing the people inside the matrix something they've never seen before, so they begin to question the matrix. And once these people question the matrix, the pass it on and so forth, creating a chain reaction that could destroy the entire matrix. So they exile the humans to zion, not only because they don't accept the program anymore, but because they are risk to the whole as well, they can spread the HOPE as well. And when things get too risky, they wipe them out entirely. Yet another reason and way for the matrix to control the people.  


Nice theory, but the architect also said that Neo had to choose several women and men to repopulate Zion. Now, if those people repopulate it, they cannot be exiles.
I AM GOD! AND I SHALL SMITE THEE!



...because I can :drevil: