[Flaser]

That's what it does - once subspace has been aligned the "bubble" can enter it - so from an outside point of view it "phases" into subspace.
Subspace is not like hyperspace of wormwholes.
The first is limitless which is clearly not the way subspace acts, while the second is about two black-holes that are connected.
What we do know about subspace is that it's limited - it has nodes, and it is influenced by gravity.
The 6dimension-space-time bubble theory integrates all those, and gives an explanation to several events.

[Tiara]

Flaser, I don't mean to offend you but your explaination of subspace sucks. Mixing actual science with "hypothetical theories" is bad. Vewy bad!

Cause if I'd be allowed to use "hypothetical theories" as well I too could come up with an explaination. But again, V didnt give enough info and we 21st century Terrans have no clue on what it is. Quit trying to rationalize what you don't understand with "hypothetical theories" .

Meh... *walks away from the thread and doesn't look back*

[WMCoolmon]

Flaser - what about missiles? Those still work in subspace, despite lack of modification.

[redsniper]

maybe the Shivan's home world/system is in GTVA space.  They left for 8000 years only to come back and find Terran and Vasudan vermin all over their home. So, they send in the Lucy to exterminate us but when it doesn't come back they send the Sath fleet to finish the job.

OR

originally posted by Zeronet
'Shivans are the Great Destroyers, but also the Great protectors'

[Flaser]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Flaser - what about missiles? Those still work in subspace, despite lack of modification.

The battle against the Lucifer actually took place in its own space-time bubble, so it was the same as using it in normal space.
Shields on the other hand would have distorted the bubble...if it is even possible to raise one inside subspace.
If you want more info about this whole "bubble business" go watch Crest of the Stars, or read about its plane-space.

[Ace]

What I find funny in these sort of discussions is how everyone focuses on the Lucifer being some sort of 'special ship' for an -insert here- (queen, hivemind, sensor grid, comm node, super market, etc.)

The real question is not what makes the Lucifer worth shielding, since even Shivan fighters are though they have smaller shields. But why Shivan capital ships so far seen other then the Lucifer do not have shields.

With the GTVA it's common sense, shielding for large scale craft has power requirements that they cannot match yet. (Even the Hades didn't have its shield system fully working)

For the Shivans, perhaps there is *something* in the design of all Shivan ships other then fighters, bombers, and the Lucifer class that does not allow for shielding technology to be used.

Just some food for thought.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Flaser


The battle against the Lucifer actually took place in its own space-time bubble, so it was the same as using it in normal space.
Shields on the other hand would have distorted the bubble...if it is even possible to raise one inside subspace.
If you want more info about this whole "bubble business" go watch Crest of the Stars, or read about its plane-space.

but shivans aren't blue with pointy ears
applying the tech fluff from one universe to another often doesn't work at all, and there's not much in common between the shivan and abh techs, for exemple, so you can't draw that kind of comparison.

[Flaser]

Originally posted by Venom


but shivans aren't blue with pointy ears
applying the tech fluff from one universe to another often doesn't work at all, and there's not much in common between the shivan and abh techs, for exemple, so you can't draw that kind of comparison.

I never said they were.
It was an offhand comment about the space-time bubble that the subspace travel uses. Some of the things are similar, but most are not.

[BlackStar]

Originally posted by Ace
What I find funny in these sort of discussions is how everyone focuses on the Lucifer being some sort of 'special ship' for an -insert here- (queen, hivemind, sensor grid, comm node, super market, etc.)

The purpose of the Lucifer was to download a Cultural Database!

The real question is not what makes the Lucifer worth shielding, since even Shivan fighters are though they have smaller shields. But why Shivan capital ships so far seen other then the Lucifer do not have shields.

With the GTVA it's common sense, shielding for large scale craft has power requirements that they cannot match yet. (Even the Hades didn't have its shield system fully working)

For the Shivans, perhaps there is *something* in the design of all Shivan ships other then fighters, bombers, and the Lucifer class that does not allow for shielding technology to be used.

Just some food for thought.

Well, for me I think they are shielded like the Lucifer but the GTVA learned how to negate those shields.  If the Sathanas showed up in FS1 then it also would be impervious to the weapons used at that time.  If another Lucifer showed up in FS2 then it would appear not to have shields.  So the whole cap-ship shields thing is now moot.

BTW, in terms of the hive-mind, there are individuals and individual initiatives taken, but only within the context of the orders received.  For instance, a worker ant may have a specific task:  Go find food.  But where the ant looks or what path it takes is completely up to it.  Ants are not in constant communication with the Queen to the extent that when the Queen is destroyed the ants drop.  Worker ants will continue doing what the always do:  Find food, fix the nest, etc.  Otherwise, antfarms wouldn't work.

I don't believe Shivans are "dump terminals" plugged into a massive server.  And I don't think there is a single Queen that controls everything.  But the Lucifer was certainly central to that group of Shivans in terms of coordinating their efforts.  And going strictly by what was said in game about the Shivans after the destruction of the Lucifer, it was observed that they were quite disorganized afterward.  

I think there is a far greater ability to communicate with each other and a far greater reliance on that communication than we have, but it isn't one hundred percent.

I think it was only a small(er) group of Shivans that communicated with Bosch and formed and "alliance" with him.  I don't think the entire Shivan armada was aware of Bosch or his ability to communicate.  That's why he was brought through the nubula, through Knossos #2 and to where ever it was they ended up.  If Bosch could talk to the entire "collective" (to use the Borg terminology) then they wouldn't have had to take him anywhere.

[Flaser]

Actually any army would be in a huge disarray if their HQ was destroyed, and the whole command chain crippled.

[BlackStar]

Yes, but subcommanders could take the initiative and command small units with minimal communication between them.  Shivans don't have that level of individualism, but neither do they have total reliance on a collective intelligence.  They fall someplace in between, just close to the collective.

So, any ideas why the Shivans only took Bosch and a few extras rather than the whole crew?

[Knight Templar]

why would they need the whole crew? Bosch himself said Neo-Terra was just a bunch of mindless cattle, all they needed were the top guys who were apart of ETAK. That was the whole point behind the Neo Terran Front.

[BlackStar]

Well, you and I know that, but how would the Shivans?  Unless Bosch told them, "Oh, don't worry about them, they aren't really important.  Besides, I'm going to blow this ship up after we leave."

My guess is the Shivans were thinking about Terrans in Shivan terms:  Workers have limited intelligence while commanders (queens) have more.  Basically, and again, I'm trying to support a limited "hive-mind" for the Shivans.  If Shivans had a complete hive-mind, then I suggest they would assume Terrans did too.  Therefore, grabbing ANY Terrans would be just as good as grabbing the leader.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by TopAce
ONLY:D 80.  

Yeah, "only" 80. That's still a lot of juggernauts.

[aldo_14]

NB:  some messages from the mission in question

"This is Victor 3. We've entered a slaughterhouse, command.  Casualty rate in the thousands, Shivan bodies are among the dead. Proceeding now to dock seven"

"The Shivans boarded us! They killed everyone! I've got thirty-three survivors in deck seven.  There's got to be more below."

"They took him away (Bosch), with Gibson and Sarno and about a dozen others"

Wjhat I'm wondering about, in particular, is did the crew of the Iceni expect the Shivans?

Also, the use of 'took' implies that the Shivans pretty much snatched Bosch as part of their attack, rather than him going along cordially.  I think that Bosch was fooled into believing the Shivans were going to be 'friendly', and expected all his crew to be taken with him - so he set the Iceni to self destruct after his departure, destroying the evidence.  Except the Shivans surprised him by attacking immediately - they were unawares of the self destruct, so they proceeded to kill all the crew of the Iceni.

Incidentally, the message about 'casualties in the thousands' indicates that the Shivans were in the Iceni for a while  - simply because the Iceni was a big ship, and they had a lot of killing to do.

any way you look at it, though, FS2 throws up more questions than answers.  It's good from a modding perspective, but still a bit of a pain in the arse.

[Bobboau]

well the shivans are quite good at killing it might not have taken long for a hand full of shivans to carve up a body count in the thousands

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Bobboau
well the shivans are quite good at killing it might not have taken long for a hand full of shivans to carve up a body count in the thousands

Well, based on the (scant) evidence from FS1, I'd still imagine you're talking at least 45minutes, probably longer - simply from the time it would take to travel.  Not to mention the fact that the crew would fight like hell (dead Shivans - requires a lot of firepower to blow one up), and even assuming there's no automated defenses in the ship, like autogun turrets.

[vyper]

Well, you and I know that, but how would the Shivans? Unless Bosch told them, "Oh, don't worry about them, they aren't really important. Besides, I'm going to blow this ship up after we leave."

In short this proves the Shivans understand command structure, authority, and a similar social structure to ours.

[Knight Templar]

that or they just went after the guy who sent the message...

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Knight Templar
that or they just went after the guy who sent the message...

Then they wouldn't have took Sarno, et al.