Author Topic: Single Space Theory  (Read 1739 times)

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Offline Flaser

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Inside the Nano-jumping thread I came up with a new subspace theory, and have been fine tuning it ever since.
I know every one is sick of these, so I will try my best to be clear, to the point, and not make an ass out of myself:

***THE GIST***

Space and Subspace are one and the same.

You don't enter subspace, you merly use a different layer of the same space-time continuum you normally reside in.
There are an infinite number of vectors one can use to travel between two points.
In "real-space" all of these vectors appear to shortcut the universe, as if they were in a different plane of reality, but in fact they are moving on a finer structure of space-time.

Objects simultaniously exist in real and subspace since the two are one and the same, but something "shifted into subspace" affects things in real space only on a nano scale and vice versa.

Objects with massive quantity of particlas (comparable to the small effects of nano-scale) will still have a noticeable effect in subspace without being "shifted to subspace". Such objects are suns, planets, or other big stellar bodies. Such objects "shifted into subspace" will also have an affect in real space.

The laws of physics are the same "inside-subspace" since you never left the space-time continuum.

***END of GIST***

The origin of this space-time model resides in loop-theory and understanding the fundament of the theory helps the understanding of the SiS theory:
To unify quantum-physics with Einstein's relativistic physics, scientists tried to model each and every particle as basic oscillarots. All of the energies of the particle would be present as oscillations on different axises - or dimensions.
However the calculations only made sense if there weren't 4, but several dimensions. Stephen Hawking came up with a good representation of this phenomenon in his book a "Brief History of Time":

"Imagine an orange - from far it appears perfectly qualifies as a sphere. Up really close however you have all these small ridges and valleys that cover its surface."

Space-time is in fact multi-dimensional - 4 of those (time + 3 space) dimensions are folded out and day-to-day events take place on that scale. However there are other dimensions wrapped up that only affect thing on a infinitly small quantum scale.

When a ship enters subspace it forces all of its particles to oscillate on the wrapped dimensions, and when they reach an energy minumum (maybe what's otherwise known as zero-point energy) the dimensions unwrap and start to act similar to the normal ones.

At this point the ship can shift all of its oscillations into those dimesions.
If it also decreases its oscillations in the normal dimensions to levels similar to what its oscillations used to be in the unwrapped ones, it can effectivly dissapear from them.

The ship will still be present in normal space! However it will only effect things on a nano scale and would be almost impossible to detect.
The same will be true to things in normal space - they ARE in subspace but their presence only causes distorsions on a nano scale.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 06:02:50 am by 997 »
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Offline Ghostavo

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I don't mean to burst your bubble, but doesn't everybody think the way you just expressed?
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Offline Andreas

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:lol: Isn't it nice we can agree on something then? But that theory is pretty much what I thought about subspace as well.
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Offline Flaser

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Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but doesn't everybody think the way you just expressed?


No, it isn't, though I'm glad some people agree with mine.
Read some of the ideas that were proposed - there are literally hundreds of theories out there.
Most / almost all of them treats subspace as a separate entity that exists parallely to real space insteads a phenomenon that is essentially part of convetnional space time.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline pyro-manic

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Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but doesn't everybody think the way you just expressed?


I thought that was a given...
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Offline Flipside

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Well, personally, I've always thought of Subspace as a different 'layer' of real space, hence the name ;)

 

Offline Carl

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it's all just meaningless words, people. subaspace=layer of space=hyperspace=whatever you want.
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Offline Sesquipedalian

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The method here proposed sounds like a more accurate account of the concept that the canon FS2 techno-babble is based on.

In practice, however, the FS universe's subspace more closely resembles the wormholes of Kip Thorn, opening a "tunnel" between two points of space.
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Offline Flaser

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Quote
Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
The method here proposed sounds like a more accurate account of the concept that the canon FS2 techno-babble is based on.

In practice, however, the FS universe's subspace more closely resembles the wormholes of Kip Thorn, opening a "tunnel" between two points of space.


That's the pilots and everday human's (ergo no quantum physics degree or a sixth sense) impression of the phenomenon.

The reason why the distinction is important is that even though I can jump, and so can my enemy; the fact that there are an infinite number of vectors makes it possible to completely miss each other in subspace.

This is the reason why subspace tracking was needed to take out the Lucifer.

Also the detectable presence of stellar bodies also makes a couple of extreme tactics possible - I mainly speak of intra system tactics.
With the sun as your reference you could change your vector mid-jump and change course in subspace.

Their presence also means that you never jump in a straight line - the gravity still takes its toll and bends your path, albeit not as strong as in normal space.
(It is also possible some of the missing or black matter actually resides in subspace.)
An added possibility is that the intense energy levels of a stars core automatically makes them somewhat present in subspace as well therefore their gravity is present stronger than if all their matter is in normal state.

It was also never explained what moves you through the corridor - I also formed an explanation:

When you take your vector, you're always looking for one where the destination's gravity field is stronger than your departure's.

Doing so allows you to travel without any prolusion of your own beside the subspace engine and you can go on without complex and very fragile ion engines that are best suited for this sort of travel. (Fusion engines are stronger, but their specific impulse is a lot worse AFAIK).

If that's the practice, it also explains why gravity makes subspace travel easier - it's not that gravity makes accesing subspace easy.
It's actually quite the opposite: subspace is used to acces gravity!

Where the gravitic fields are stronger, a minor vector will put you into subspace and into the grasp of the destination's gravity.

On the other hand when the destination's field is weak you have to take a sharper vector that consumes more energy.
In case of interstellar travel making a vector of your own probably takes astronomical ammounts of energy therefore you have to look for inherent irregularities or rifts in the structure of spacetime - AKA as nodes.

The only premissa of this mode of travel is that a vector shouldn't be isotropic - which is pretty justified IMHO.
The subspace corridor appears as a warped image of the universe. If that is so, than along that vector the universe wasn't uniformly shrunk therefore it is indeed an anisotropic phenomenon.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Mad Bomber

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Interesting.

Though I have to point out the Kip Thorne thing: remember the bet he made with Stephen Hawking? He ended up winning the bet -- Hawking had only taken the losing side as a possible consolation prize if his theory turned out to be wrong.

In Hawking's words, "Kip received a year's subscription to Penthouse, much to his wife's disgust." :D
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Offline Flaser

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Max you've totally grabbed the wrong end of the issue.

The subspace phenomenon doesn't warp space in any manner AFAIK or it doesn't happen in my theory.

Isotropic means that it's the same in all directions.

When I said you need anisotropic vectors, I meant thay you have to be able to find a vector where your destination's gravity field is actually stronger --> closer than your destination.

What is a vector?
A set of quantum osciallations for all of your particles.

The set is a combination of dimensions that you open up and move along.
There are an infinite number of vectors among 2 points - however there are infinitly more vectors than conventional space vectors (or paths) between the same point.

The reason is that in space I can only use 3 base vectors to sum my own - along a true subspace vector I can use an endless ammount of base vectors.

I'm looking for a vector on whoose coordinates the destination's gravity field is stronger than my departure's.

The reason why that can be so is that on some vectors my destination can be closer than my departure point.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote

While travel into subspace is enabled via ship-borne devices (called “subspace engines”, “cores”, or “motivators”), it’s long been known that subspace itself is a naturally-occuring phenomena.  

Subspace, for the intents of this document, is an alternate physical plane of space where the normal limits of relativistic physics and travel don’t apply.  By entering subspace for a relatively brief period of time, a space vessel can emerge in a location in realspace several star systems away.  This technology has allowed the human race to spread across much of the known Galaxy.

There are essentially two modes of subspace travel, inter-system and intra-system.

Intra-system subspace travel is nearly instantaneous, and requires relatively little energy input to enable.  Most of the GTA’s advanced fighters are equipped with intra-system jump motivators, allowing them to travel at will within a given star system.  There is little or no restriction on the beginning and end points of such a subspace “hop,” except that they be in the same star system.  

Inter-system travel via subspace is another matter entirely.  The end points of inter-system subspace jumps are limited to the naturally-occuring focal points of subspace, also known as “nodes.”  These nodes were initially discovered by Prof. J. Whiteside (see McPherson’s Multipaedia  (2557 ed.), pp 1132-1140).  Only between two subspace nodes is the fabric of subspace strong enough to support inter-system travel.  The defense of the physical locations surrounding such nodes proved to be a central part of the 14-year Terran-Vasudan War.

In addition, such massive amounts of energy input are required to open an inter-system node, that only the largest fusion pile reactors in existence are able to sustain it.  As a result, inter-system subspace travel is almost exclusively made by the largest vessels in production.  This fact has made the GTA’s Orion-class destroyer/carriers a pivotal and crucial part to the GTA’s tactical forces during the T-V War.

Needless to say, the ability to deliver ships of war to nearly any pinpointed destination has forever revolutionized the concepts and long-standing tenants of space combat.


[q]
n simple terms, subspace is an n-dimensional tunnel between one point in the universe and another. A vessel can travel through this tunnel in a matter of minutes, making a journey that might otherwise take decades or even centuries at light speed.

A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum. A vortex opens, creating an aperture from an infinitesimally small point in the cosmos, enabling the vessel to cross the subspace threshold.

Two types of jumps are possible.

First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.

Second, ships can jump from system to system via nodes. Until the Great War, only larger ships could generate sufficient power to use jump nodes. The development of jump drives for fighters and bombers in 2335 enabled the Alliance to destroy the SD Lucifer in subspace. Producing these small jump drives is prohibitively expensive, so they are restricted to missions that require pilots to travel between systems. The Head-Up Display indicates the location of jump nodes with a green sphere.

The vast majority of subspace nodes are extremely unstable, forming and dissipating in nanoseconds. Other nodes have a longer lifespan, existing for centuries or millennia before collapsing. The jump nodes sanctioned by the GTVA for interstellar travel are expected to remain stable for many years.
[/q]

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Quote
Originally posted by Flaser
Inside the Nano-jumping thread I came up with a new subspace theory, and have been fine tuning it ever since.
I know every one is sick of these, so I will try my best to be clear, to the point, and not make an ass out of myself:

***THE GIST***

Space and Subspace are one and the same.

You don't enter subspace, you merly use a different layer of the same space-time continuum you normally reside in.
There are an infinite number of vectors one can use to travel between two points.
In "real-space" all of these vectors appear to shortcut the universe, as if they were in a different plane of reality, but in fact they are moving on a finer structure of space-time.

Objects simultaniously exist in real and subspace since the two are one and the same, but something "shifted into subspace" affects things in real space only on a nano scale and vice versa.

Objects with massive quantity of particlas (comparable to the small effects of nano-scale) will still have a noticeable effect in subspace without being "shifted to subspace". Such objects are suns, planets, or other big stellar bodies. Such objects "shifted into subspace" will also have an affect in real space.

The laws of physics are the same "inside-subspace" since you never left the space-time continuum.

***END of GIST***

The origin of this space-time model resides in loop-theory and understanding the fundament of the theory helps the understanding of the SiS theory:
To unify quantum-physics with Einstein's relativistic physics, scientists tried to model each and every particle as basic oscillarots. All of the energies of the particle would be present as oscillations on different axises - or dimensions.
However the calculations only made sense if there weren't 4, but several dimensions. Stephen Hawking came up with a good representation of this phenomenon in his book a "Brief History of Time":

"Imagine an orange - from far it appears perfectly qualifies as a sphere. Up really close however you have all these small ridges and valleys that cover its surface."

Space-time is in fact multi-dimensional - 4 of those (time + 3 space) dimensions are folded out and day-to-day events take place on that scale. However there are other dimensions wrapped up that only affect thing on a infinitly small quantum scale.

When a ship enters subspace it forces all of its particles to oscillate on the wrapped dimensions, and when they reach an energy minumum (maybe what's otherwise known as zero-point energy) the dimensions unwrap and start to act similar to the normal ones.

At this point the ship can shift all of its oscillations into those dimesions.
If it also decreases its oscillations in the normal dimensions to levels similar to what its oscillations used to be in the unwrapped ones, it can effectivly dissapear from them.

The ship will still be present in normal space! However it will only effect things on a nano scale and would be almost impossible to detect.
The same will be true to things in normal space - they ARE in subspace but their presence only causes distorsions on a nano scale.


It's a tunnel with swirly blue stuff and lights at both ends.:p

Really, there's no way to "explain" subspace. I don't think we should bother to try to find out how it works.
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Offline Cobra

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correct me if i'm wrong, but actually, you're in the same space, but in a different dimension. this may have been said, but in different words.
To consider the Earth as the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to assert that in an entire field of millet, only one grain will grow. - Metrodorus of Chios
I wept. Mysterious forces beyond my ken had reached into my beautiful mission and energized its pilots with inhuman bomb-firing abilities. I could only imagine the GTVA warriors giving a mighty KIAAIIIIIII shout as they worked their triggers, their biceps bulging with sinew after years of Ivan Drago-esque steroid therapy and weight training. - General Battuta

 

Offline Flaser

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No.

You're still present in the normal dimensions as well - except you only influence things on a quantum scale and vice versa.

However things with lots of particles can still hurt/interact with you.
Ergo...no flying through the core of stars.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline FireCrack

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I always thaught like flaser did, the gravity drawing ships into subspace is a neat idea and may explain the extreme speed of that first destroyer in 'the kings gambit'
« Last Edit: February 27, 2005, 02:41:56 am by 2073 »
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline Cobra

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when actually it's a vortex that sucks in whatever is jumping. the only reason it comes out at 300 m/s is due to the momentum gained from entering the vortex.

i'm wrong again, aren't i?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2005, 01:32:00 am by 2299 »
To consider the Earth as the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to assert that in an entire field of millet, only one grain will grow. - Metrodorus of Chios
I wept. Mysterious forces beyond my ken had reached into my beautiful mission and energized its pilots with inhuman bomb-firing abilities. I could only imagine the GTVA warriors giving a mighty KIAAIIIIIII shout as they worked their triggers, their biceps bulging with sinew after years of Ivan Drago-esque steroid therapy and weight training. - General Battuta

  

Offline Flaser

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I think I figured out the slowing down part - when you jump out, you have to make a vector, that is the opposite of what you jumped with.

In subspace, the ss-engine is at ease, once you made the transition to that particular vector - which is a state of quantum oscillations - you no longer need the engine.

However to reenter the normal oscillations - ergo normal space - you need the engine. (A ship with a fryed warp drive, can be effectivly strended in subspace).

When you from the aforementioned negative vector, your departure point's gravity field would be stronger than the destination point's therfore the jump out will slow you down.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan