Author Topic: RETURN OF THE KING - Can you wait?  (Read 26638 times)

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Offline mikhael

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Are you going to argue semantics, Trashman? DGs interpretation is pretty much accurate, especially from the point of view of the Men and Elves and Dwarves. They considered the Valar gods and only the Elves even knew of Illuvatar in a personal way.
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Offline Setekh

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Morgoth really intrigues me - it seems to me, from my limited knowledge, that Sauron was just playing around compared to the armies Morgoth had bearing down on Arda. Where are the accounts of his conquest and the defence of the Elves or Numenoreans or whoever stood up against him? The Silmarillion?
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Offline mikhael

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Indeed. Its all in the Silmarillion. Morgoth makes Sauron look like Tom Bombadil. A large chunk of the SIlmarillion is concerned with the Valar dealing with Morgoth's plots.
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Offline Setekh

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Sweeeet. :) I have plenty of Tolkien to catch up on, but I have to learn how to drive, so I lack the reading time I used to have when sitting idly in the car between places. :o
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Offline 01010

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Well what I was thinking was that, whilst Morgoth had the Balrogs and Dragons, Sauron had a lot of control over a lot of the men of the East and the Haradrim (who were formerly Numenoreans) and more so than Morgoth seemed to, which to me would seem like quite a powerful force. Saurons mistake was binding the most part of his power and will to the ring which was eventually his downfall.

Also, I couldn't get to grips with how Beleriand was part of Middle Earth until the third time I read through the Silmarillion and realised that the mountains on the far right of the map are actually the same mountains that are at the very left of the map in LOTR. I like the idea that the battle between the Valar and Morgoth was that big it literally destroyed a huge part of Middle Earth.
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Offline Gloriano

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Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Not even slightly, is your answer

Morgoth was a Vala. Sauron was a maia. You're comparing the power of a god and an angel, basically.

Also, Sauron put a large chunk of his power in to the Ruling Ring in order to control the Three, Seven and the Nine. Morgoth however put his power directly in to his armies and demons and whatnot, and in to his marring of Arda. Morgoth's 'Ring' was the Earth and all his creatures in it. Thus Morgoth's power, though infinitely greater, was far more spread out and diluted than that of Sauron :nod:

Not to mention the fact that Sauron is still working for Morgoth in the War of the ring. Though banished from the world, Morgoth's will still influences his servants :nod:


sounds right:nod:


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he had armies of Barlogs and Dragons (thousands!)...



Actually there were 7 Balrogs servants of Morgoth and they are The Balrogs originated as Maiar, beings of the same kind as Sauron himself
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Offline diamondgeezer

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Bacicly, Eru = God, Valar = Archangels, Maiar = Half-Angles...or something

I was speaking from the perspective of the World. The Valar are the Powers of Arda. To you and me, they're gods. Of course Eru is the guy that is worshipped as God today (or so it is implied). The Maiar are the people of the Valar, spirits sometimes sent to Earth to help out - such as Gandalf and Saruman. Thus it's best to think of them as angels :)

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What I don't like in the movie is the fact that Gandalf seems weaker. He was more powerfull in the book.

Well what do you want exactly? He drove away the winged Nazgul, he beat up that Balrog good and proper. The whole point of Gandalf was being a leader and counsellor. He wasn't allowed to oppose Sauron directly, presumably becuase such a battle would be devestating for Middle-earth and the Valar didn't wan't to set up another tyrant lord. The Valar have never achieved any good by forcing Men or Elves down a certain path (Men even less so), so Gandalf had to help Men find the courage and strength to fight off the Shadow.
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Originally posted by 01010
... men of the East and the Haradrim (who were formerly Numenoreans)

Um... no? The Dunedain, the Men of Gondor and the Rangers of the northern line were the last remenants of Numenor. The Easterlings and Haradrim have always been in the east and south (where as the Edain of old, the ancestors of the Dunedain, came north and west)
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and more so than Morgoth seemed to

Dunno where you heard that. Mortgoth had huge armies of Easterlings. And half the Men fighting for Fingon turned on the Elves (we suck)
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Also, I couldn't get to grips with how Beleriand was part of Middle Earth until the third time I read through the Silmarillion and realised that the mountains on the far right of the map are actually the same mountains that are at the very left of the map in LOTR.

The Ered Luin, the blue Mountians. Yeah, tis a right head **** at first, that one :nod:
Quote
Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
Actually there were 7 Balrogs servants of Morgoth and they are The Balrogs originated as Maiar, beings of the same kind as Sauron himself

Seven, eh? Where'd you get that number from? As for the Balrogs being Maiar, it's more accurate to call them beings of the same order but of lesser might than Sauron. As Maiar went, Sauron was pretty hard :nod:
« Last Edit: January 17, 2004, 07:52:42 am by 170 »

 

Offline Gloriano

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Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer

Seven, eh? Where'd you get that number from? As for the Balrogs being Maiar, it's more accurate to call them beings of the same order but of lesser might than Sauron. As Maiar went, Sauron was pretty hard :nod:




Diffrent Sources and think about it they are powerfull only Gandalf was really powerfull to destroy one Balrog
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.- Nietzsche

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Offline diamondgeezer

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Well yes, certainly Gandalf was just about the only guy on our side who could have taken the Balrog on.

Back in the First Age, of course, Balrogs were being slain left and right. We must presume that either Elves were harder back then (they were, but not that much), Balrogs were weaker (possibly though why should they have gotton stronger?) or the one in Moria was particularly hard example :)

 

Offline Gloriano

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Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Well yes, certainly Gandalf was just about the only guy on our side who could have taken the Balrog on.

Back in the First Age, of course, Balrogs were being slain left and right. We must presume that either Elves were harder back then (they were, but not that much), Balrogs were weaker (possibly though why should they have gotton stronger?) or the one in Moria was particularly hard example :)


Actually sounds good:)
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.- Nietzsche

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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer

As for the Balrogs being Maiar, it's more accurate to call them beings of the same order but of lesser might than Sauron. As Maiar went, Sauron was pretty hard :nod:

Balrogs are stated as being Maiar spirit of Fire in the Silmarillion pretty explicitly I think. Sauron was also a Maiar spirit of Fire, but he wasn't a Balrog. At least that's the way I remember it.
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Offline diamondgeezer

RETURN OF THE KING - Can you wait?
Something like that. Sauron is described as being the chief of the spirits who served Morgoth. He was originally one of Aule's boys, so he was a bit handy with making things. Hence he ended up as a sorcerer.

 

Offline 01010

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Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer




Um... no? The Dunedain, the Men of Gondor and the Rangers of the northern line were the last remenants of Numenor. The Easterlings and Haradrim have always been in the east and south (where as the Edain of old, the ancestors of the Dunedain, came north and west)

Dunno where you heard that. Mortgoth had huge armies of Easterlings. And half the Men fighting for Fingon turned on the Elves (we suck)


I explicitly remember reading that some of the men fighting for Sauron were Dark Numenoreans who had settled at Umbar and further down the coast and weren't caught in the sinking of Numenor but I can't remember where I read it, I'll try to get a page number if I can. It's something I only just noticed to be honest and it's not a big deal that's made of it but I should imagine fighting fallen men of the west would be a lot harder than fighting normal humans. :)

As for Morgoth, it's my opinion that he was more powerful than Sauron, for obvious reasons (Valar > Maiar) but I do think that Sauron ascended a lot in power with the creation of the one ring, especially as he was unchecked for a lot longer than Morgoth ever was. As far as I can recall though, Morgoth didn't really use men in the same way Sauron did because he didn't really pay heed to them. That's the impression that I get anyway.

I love the depth in the Tolkien universe.
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Offline diamondgeezer

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Quote
Originally posted by 01010
I explicitly remember reading that some of the men fighting for Sauron were Dark Numenoreans who had settled at Umbar and further down the coast and weren't caught in the sinking of Numenor
[/b]
Oh, well, yes, I'll give you that one :) Some exiled Numenoreans set themselves up as tyrant kings in Middle-earth, as the kings of Numenor used to do in the days of Sur
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As far as I can recall though, Morgoth didn't really use men in the same way Sauron did because he didn't really pay heed to them.

Morgoth was terrified of Men. Alone of the Valar Morgoth knew fear. He was also contemptuous of them, believing them to be weaker then Elves and thus of little use to him. Kind of a contradictory attitude, but that reflects hiw ****ed up perspective on the world :)

 

Offline TrashMan

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A few facts:

1. Elves were more powerfull in the beginning, or should I say, those born and those who lived in Valinor are more powerfull than those born in Middle-Earth. We know that some elves came to live in Valinor at the very beggining and never left (except to fight Morgoth with the Valar). They were mostly blue-haired elves
and were called the Elves of Light.


2. Morgoth had lots of Barlogs. Sez so in the book. Many of them were allso killed by some of the more powerfull elves of those times (read: kick-ass powerfull), like Echtellion vs. Gothmog (lord of Barlogs)

3. In the book, Gandalf never fought the withc-king of Agmar (lord of Nazghul). And he didn't break his staff.

4. Sauron was Aules Maiar, before he was seduced by Morgoth. He became far more powerfull in his service.
Gandalf (Olorin) is allso a Maiar, but I can't recall whos' (I think Varda's...not sure..)
Eonwe was Manwes Maiar, and the most powerfull of all Maiars
Barlogs are allso Maiars

5. Yes, there were some decendants of Numenor (Dark Numenorans) who were evil, alltough their blood was far from pure..
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Offline karajorma

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Originally posted by TrashMan
5. Yes, there were some decendants of Numenor (Dark Numenorans) who were evil, alltough their blood was far from pure..


The mouth of Sauron is one. I'm suprised no one remembered him.
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Offline diamondgeezer

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Trashman mate, you're shotting pretty wildly there and mostly missing the target

 

Offline Stunaep

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Right. I watched the Director's and Screenwriter's commentary on TTT tonight, so I'll comment on what they said on the changes.

On Éomer and Erkenbrand - Not really an issue, pretty logical. Having Erkenbrand rescue the rohirrim in Helm's Deep would have added another character, and been an unnecessary Deus Ex Machina, not to mention making Éomer a pretty much redundant character.

On The Cliff Scene - Firstly, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens make some jokes, then blame everything on Peter Jackson. PJ sais that because no chief character died in TTT, the story wasn't in a low-point enough for him. He wanted to create a feeling of desperation in later scenes, and making everyone think that Aragorn was dead was the way to do it. Also, he wanted Aragorn to witness the march of the Uruks and make him a more involved character, as so far in the film he had been pretty passive. The fall also served for Aragorn as a decision making moment - whether he actually wanted to continue  defending the Rohirrim and accept his fate, or just... well, die. And lastly, if he hadn't fallen, it would have made the Warg Attack scene redundant. Which is a pretty pathetic explanation by itself, considering that the Warg Attack was never in the book and was something that PJ himself wanted to do.

On Faramir - It's been mentioned here before, PJ said that having Faramir reject the ring would have made him a terribly 2-dimensional character, as well as reduce the effect of the ring, as suddenly this guy comes, who the ring has no effect on, while for the rest 1 1/2 movies everyone's been yapping about how the ring corrupts everyone.

On Elves in Helm's Deep - PJ considers it just a cool thing to do, to increase the anticipation even, plus the other movies have established this kind of connection between elves and men (i.e. The Last Alliance), which he wanted to pay off. Also he sais that he wanted to do the part in which Elrond sends his sons to help Aragorn, but couldn't, for obvious reasons. So instead he had Elrond send Haldir.

On Entmoot - Basically, if the Ents had decided to go war in Entmoot, Merry and Pippin would have been basically luggage to be carried around in the first two films. But PJ wanted to have them make a difference, and expand their character arcs (Pippin's especially)

On The Osgiliath Flashback - PJ wanted to introduce the relationship of Faramir and Denethor, and show the entire family together. He also wanted to explain Boromir's motives. And explain the frase "A chance for Faramir, captain of Gondor to prove his quality". Logical enough.

On Leaving Out Shelob - PJ figured, that the dramatical ending of the film was the victory at Helm's Deep, and the emotional climax was Faramir letting Frodo go. So putting in Shelob on top of that, would have seemed like action for action's sake for the casual movie-goer. And cronologically, it happened during Return of the King, so that added to it.

On Stuff that Didn't Make the Film - Originally, as in back when LOTR was a two-movie project for Miramax, the decision to evacuate Helm's Deep was made because of a Warg Attack on Edoras, during the night. Aragorn would have then been dragged away by a rampaging warg and left for dead. This didn't make the cut, because it was impossible to shoot at Edoras during night, due to severe lighting issues. This ended up obviously as the Warg Attack during the evacuation

Also, Elrond was supposed to go to Lothlórien for council from Galadriel. Later, Arwen would have gone to Helm's Deep. This was cut because the screenwriters felt it didn't really go with Arwen's character and diverged from the book too much. This ended up as Haldir showing up at Helm's Deep.

In the scene where Faramir confronts Frodo, and Sam pleads him to let Frodo go, there is a moment when frodo goes to hide in the corner. This moment was originally supposed to be followed up by Faramir looking at Frodo and seeing him as a future Gollum mk. II, to illustrate what the ring was doing to him. This ended up being cut due to confused faces in New Line.

Discuss.
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Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
The mouth of Sauron is one. I'm suprised no one remembered him.


Was he in the films? I read about him, but don't remember seeing him.
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Offline Stunaep

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nope, he'll be in the extended edition
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