[aldo_14]

Originally posted by mikhael


The question you have to ask is "is the goal of Championship Manager to have the winningest team?". If so, then it is a simple game, because that goal is just an aggregation of all the contests that lead up to it. In a complex game, the goal is disconnected from the contests that lead up to it. That's why an RPG cannot be 'lost'. Your success in the game (IE the satisfactory completion of the total game) does not hinge on any of the contests that lead up to it.

It doesn't matter. Its just my insane ramblings, anyway.

 I'm not sure why a game is more 'complex' if the preceeding 'contests' have no relevance?  Surely that makes it simple?

At least in something like ChampMan, every action has a consequence - players get pissed off when you sub them after 30 minutes or dump them in the reserves (and develop grudges against you, other players or teams), or the opposite (you win their respect), clubs suffer financial problems from overspending or pull themselves into the black thorugh profit, etc.  

In terms of depth and lasting consequences, there's very little offhand that I can compare it to.  Think of an MMORG where you can do pretty much everything within the game context.

[Setekh]

Originally posted by HotSnoJ
I played the demo that came on the windows 95 or was it 98 CD. I had it down to a science. Though I never could find the game.

Neither. I actually found it quite fun too... damn hard, I wish I could have saved my game...

[Nico]

Originally posted by aldo_14


 I'm not sure why a game is more 'complex' if the preceeding 'contests' have no relevance?  Surely that makes it simple?

At least in something like ChampMan, every action has a consequence - players get pissed off when you sub them after 30 minutes or dump them in the reserves (and develop grudges against you, other players or teams), or the opposite (you win their respect), clubs suffer financial problems from overspending or pull themselves into the black thorugh profit, etc.  

In terms of depth and lasting consequences, there's very little offhand that I can compare it to.  Think of an MMORG where you can do pretty much everything within the game context.

excepted that thing is not a game, I call it Visual Excel

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Nico

excepted that thing is not a game, I call it Visual Excel

back.

Anyways, it is a game, cos I just bloody wrote one of the things for another sport.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by aldo_14
I'm not sure why a game is more 'complex' if the preceeding 'contests' have no relevance?  Surely that makes it simple?

What I'm talking about Aldo, is a basic underlying feature of the game. The details of the game do not matter at all here.
The win condition of the game is not dependent on the contests within the game. There is no deterministic connection between winning the contests and winning the game. To that end, something else must be brought in to determine whether or not the player 'wins' the game, since we cannot use the tally of successful contests as a guage. In an RPG, for example, or a a space combat sim, we know that by the end of the game, the player will have won every single fight. If they didn't, they replay the fight until they do, creating an unending chain of victories until the end of the game. Another dimension must be added to the gameplay to make the determination of victory. In the case of Freespace2, you win every contest all the way to the end of the game (you satisfactorily fulfill all the mission goals), but the Shivans claim victory and blow up Capella. The story is the added dimension that determines the whether or not the game has been 'won'.
In a simple game, if you win the contests, you win the game. There is nothing simpler than that. Its a straight tally. In a game like Championship manager, your tally is having 'the most successful team'. In Sim City, its having 'the most successful city'. In a sports game, its 'winning the championship'. Because one doesn't need to add something to determine the successful outcome of the game, these games are 'simple'.

In terms of depth and lasting consequences, there's very little offhand that I can compare it to.  Think of an MMORG where you can do pretty much everything within the game context.

You can do anything you want within the game's boundaries, but you cannot do anything unexpected or world changing--unless all the other players can do the same thing. The quests respawn, so everyone gets a crack at killing the king. You don't get to do anything novel or unique. You can't push in unexpected directions.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by mikhael



Ah...I thought you were alluding to the design as being in someway simpler, not the base gameplay-typey-story-thing.

(vocabulary failed me:))

Originally posted by mikhael

You can do anything you want within the game's boundaries, but you cannot do anything unexpected or world changing--unless all the other players can do the same thing. The quests respawn, so everyone gets a crack at killing the king. You don't get to do anything novel or unique. You can't push in unexpected directions.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'unexpected directions'?  Insofar as I've experienced (and this is still a ChampMan reference), there aren't really any clearly defined boundaries beyond the fact that you have to manage a football team.  

What i mean is that in an MMOG, there are things you can do, but which have no lasting impact (i.e. the respawning).    In ChampMan, it's the opposite - no situation can be duplicated (at least, not easily), and every action has a constant & lasting consequence.  i.e. every action is (game)world changing in some way.

I think maybe there are 3 definitions to look at here;
- story based (complex) games
- tally based games (simple)
- user-determined goal-based games

The latter, which i'm alluding to, is basically giving the user the ability to do anything, and observe the consequences, within the context of the gameworld.  i.e. the user determines if they win.

for example, in champMan I - for example - win the European Cup.  But I set my goal as winning the league, and building a first team with no foreigners and all under 25 years old.  And if I do that, then the next season is to introduce extra youngsters from the youth team, etc.  And if I get bored, then take up an international job or change clubs....etc.

That sort of thing..... i.e. if non-linear games can't currently enforce a storyline, let the user make their own.  the game doesn't have to enforce it, just give the user the ability to meet it.

In the case of ChampMan, this is possible - albeit partially because the world it's set in (i.e. the gameworld and all it's states) is less complex than a non-linear world in another type of game.

Er, what was this all about again?

[TopAce]

If I had a joystick .... X-wing Alliance and X-wing vs. TIE Fighter.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by aldo_14

...

Actually, aldo, I agree with you most all the way through what you said.

For what its worth, Will Wright, the guy that created SimCity and created the 'management' genre, had something to say on the matter. He said that he didn't consider things like SimCity and SimEarth to be games. He called them 'sandboxes' and classified them as 'software toys', rather than games. Championship manager seems to fall into that category too.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by mikhael


Actually, aldo, I agree with you most all the way through what you said.

For what its worth, Will Wright, the guy that created SimCity and created the 'management' genre, had something to say on the matter. He said that he didn't consider things like SimCity and SimEarth to be games. He called them 'sandboxes' and classified them as 'software toys', rather than games. Championship manager seems to fall into that category too.

So, um, that was a pseudo-debate where nobody actually disagreed but just talked at cross purposes?

Cool

I've always liked the concept of software toys, as an aside.   Possibly because they allow the most scope to impose your own will on the game & what happens, rather than either forcing you down a storyline or sandboxing you (the simple games analogy).