[Drew]

yeah i noticed, but unless u can control individual arms like your own body, its hard to manuver in zero-g. but we could make nifty cutscens

[.::Tin Can::.]

So now people are starting to agree one something huh? Very good...

As for the Zero-G, we can clearly work this out whenever we get the game into its natural form. But until then, can we please stick to mission design, concepts, realistic set-ups and stuff? Zero-G shouldnt be introduced until we at least get 4 or 5 missions running.

[Drew]

eh, should this have UT style gameplay or slower gameplay like Ghost recon or Americas army.

[.::Tin Can::.]

Not TOO slow, just, Half Life 2 kinda slow. Half Life 2 keeps the action up and going and kickin ass in its single player, with thinking, strategy, etc putting its play into the game. So, its not really definate, but, i'd say inbetween...

[Drew]

how do you know what gameplay is like? have u played the beta?

[Ransom]

Do you think maybe on the missions where you encounter Shivans, the gameplay should switch to a more horrorish game such as AvP 2 (as the marine) or Doom 3, relying more on suspense? Personally I think that'd be cool, at least in some of the earlier Shivan missions.

[Flaser]

Some Systemshock 2 like RPG elements could be lifted into gameplay.

Weapon skills for instance.

You should be able to use any weapon, and even hit with automatic weapons, but when you try a buckshot shotgun for the first time(in your virtual life), the thing should swing all around the place after each shot.

A sniper would be excelent with a sniping weapon, but he won't excel with the closecombat shotgun, while the pistol maniac could accuratly use a pistol (the others shouldn't be able to hit anything with the pistol beyond a small range) or use 2 of them in a close quartes fight.

No weapon should be useless - this would lead to Halo style tactical action.

The other is stats for the avatar - strengh, agility, edurance.

Strengh determines the ammount of stuff you can carry, agility your speed and how high you can jump (the ammount of damage you take when falling), endurance your HP and the damage you take from enviromental effects.

It shouldn't be a true "leveling" RPG model, instead you could be given choices to go on trainings between missions / campaigns (bootcamp ect.).

You shouldn't be able to raise the stats infinitly, furthermore high stats in one category would reduce the other two.

So if you're muscular and very strong (carry tons of stuff, and down a Vasudan in Hth combat) you won't be that fast, and all the muscles will lower your stamina faster (a Diablo 2 like stamina system. So the brute will be slow but steady.

The lieth runner could sneak up on anyone, but he won't be able to wield a chainsaw sword (too heavy) or carry a rocket launcher - an uzi/assault gun (squad weapon) is antoher story.

The enduring "middleman" won't be skipping around or haul a tank on his shoulders, but he would be able to run for the most ammount of time (not as fast as the sprinter) and wear down the opposition with a drown out cat and mouse hunt.

[Ghostavo]

And a shivan would have all of those things in max

WHAT?

[Drew]

i dunno flasher; i know some really massive dudes that can run their asses off

some of those beefy footbal players run faster than you would think.......

[Flaser]

Yes you could max out both agility and stregh - but you won't be able to hold onto your toes longer than 30 minutes - and trust me if Halo is going to be fought Halo style - which is a lot better than some careless shoot 'em FPS around - you'd spends that much on a single level.

Shivans won't have all of those maxed - they will have higher stats, but you can make the player stronger, faster or more enduring Ghostavo - at a cost.

BTW stop calling me Flasher, Drawer unless you wanna draw out my stalking maniac character who will flash your mind with something lot more painful than nude photoes of your granny (no I'm not that uggly....so be polite and we can each go on our way).

A friend of mine gave me this idea - why is it that soldiers aren't as muscular as some of the body builders?

It's because muscles take energy to run, so an over-developed person won't be able to hold his line as long as a more scrawny but still well trained person.

So after a level of agility you get negative marks on both endurance and strengh, same goes for strengh and endurance.

You only have a couple of points to operate with when making a character, and will have moderate options to change his stats throught the game - well if this system is used.

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by Flaser
- and trust me if Halo is going to be fought Halo style -  

oh, logic at it's best

[.::Tin Can::.]

We arent trying to run an RPG here people. It's an FPS. If we can make it so that you can customize your loadout, then that should be tactial enough. At the moment, FS2 never was an RPG to lets not make it as such.

The loadout should be enough to give you an FS2 feel, without the complex RPG system that we dont really need. Indeed, all the realism is put into effect here, but since when was FS2 realistic? I say, little to none. It's space, you have a big-ass armor suit on, you float around in Zero-G on a Shivan Starship, so, do you think the last thing someone wants to worry about is "Oh ****! I dont have high enough stats for my assault rifle!" when they are capping some NTF ass?

[Drew]

Originally posted by Flaser
BTW stop calling me Flasher

so i should also stop calling Lightspeed Lightspeed, stop calling an0n, an0n and stop calling Bob Bob?

[.::Tin Can::.]

His name is Flaser, not Flasher. There is no H dude...

Now back on topic folks. No RPG system, ok? Loadouts are good, RPG stats are bad... thats why there are classes, I guess... just like certain ships can carry certain weapons, and others cannot.

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by Drew

so i should also stop calling Lightspeed Lightspeed, stop calling an0n, an0n and stop calling Bob Bob?

Oh, I wouldn't mind if you changed that for "lighty", "evil clone" or something along those lines

seriously though, his name is Flaser.

[Unknown Target]

Lmao

[Flaser]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
His name is Flaser, not Flasher. There is no H dude...

Now back on topic folks. No RPG system, ok? Loadouts are good, RPG stats are bad... thats why there are classes, I guess... just like certain ships can carry certain weapons, and others cannot.

I didn't want to make it into an RPG. It is an FPS. - However take a look at System Shock 2 - they had some nice elements that could add to gamplay, and I guess that's what really matters.

BTW as I said - youd should be able to use any weapon, but for some extreme things you'd need training to use them at their full potential. The way it was implemented in Deus Ex, except the crappy aiming.

Rifles, Uzis, Squadweapons - anyone can use them fairly well.
Extreme things are like:
-Minigun - it's not that easy to go around hauling one
-Swords and their kind - anyone can slash with a knife, but can you block a Shivan with it?:devil:
-Rocket Launcher - when did anyone ever see some commando use one, or run around the place with one?
-Sniper Rifle -  just because you can fire and achieve good results at a firing range, does it mean you can take down somebody 2 miles away?
-Pistols - ever tried to snipe with one? This is a specialty, a pistol is not for long range.

Also some weapons shouldn't be useable on the run. In Flashpoint this was a good point. However this wouldn't mean you can fire any weapon while moving around:
-Squadweapons, SMGs, autoshotguns - these things don't need very good aiming and were intended to be used will on the run to give firesupport to your group
-Pistols, Machineguns, Autorifles - you can fire them from the hip, but these won't be as accurate as otherwise, still weapons with a high ROF would still force the enemy to retreat.
-Rifles - these things are a ***** to use while running, but you can still manage while walking/stalking - same for rocketlauncher, grenade launcher.

The so called 'stats' I mentioned - the whole idea of a skill/stat system is to eliminate classes or loadouts.

That way you could customise your soldier.
Also if you want to eliminate any true RPG element, than there shouldn't be leveling in terms of stats - even skills if you ammend.

Let's take an example and show what I thought of:

I want a fast soldier, so I can get to places ahead of the team and scout around. I don't want heavy weaponry 'cause that would attract too much attention.

You have 5 skill points, each weapon specialty has 4 levels.

I pick pistol - 1, assaultrifle/SMG - 2, sword/knife - 2. Those are all light weapons.
I can still use any weapon, but I'm more adept at close-quarters weapons, and can use a pistol more efficiently if I run out of ammo.

I pick my 'stats' next: I have 23 stat points and each stat has a maximum of 10 and a minimum of 1. There are 4 stats: strengh, endurance, perception, agility. the base is 5 points for each and I have 3 points to spare.

I want a faster charactor so I up agility to 8 - a high stat, but I'm quite average otherway. I don't have to carry that much stuff, so I take 2 points from strengh which will be 3 - a civilian is this strong. I add it to perception - so it's 7 another high stat. Endurance of 5 is low for a close quarters fighter if I get shot, by truts my speed to ghost them instead get caught.

How will this affect gamplay, will I have to do any RPG-ish magin while playing and collect XP and whatsoever? NO.

It means I have chosen to be faster and hit more precisly with weapons. If you think this is unbalanced, mind you although I can use heavy weapons, they have a strengh requirement otherwise they will have negative effects, so I can't snipe the enemy with a badass autocannon.

Does this lead to the "I ain't have enough xxx.points to use that" situation? NO.
It merly means I have chosen to be more adept with light weapons which cause less damage, but don't slow me down. If there's a goddamn tank assaulting me, I can still drop my spare rifle and pistol and make just enough space for the bazooka. All I have to do is get in a sniping position, and remember to crounch while I fire the damn thing 'casue I'm not a towering hulk who can put up with its kickback.

The skills section only improves this philospy.

While I built a scout, I'm still capable of adding a wide range of assortments. I can be a ninja, who's the master of the silent kill, a sniper, who quickly gets in position, the cowboy, ect....ect.

Instead loadouts or classes I'm given just a bit more freedom to create my own style of playing and while it constrains me it also gives me a slight edge.

This is similar to what the classes where meant to achieve in Half-Life Team Fortress Classic.

You may either like the idea or not, but I just tried to explain it better than my last post.

[.::Tin Can::.]

You're just adding a little bit of this and a little bit more of that to a project we dont even have completely designed yet. Team Fortress made it possible to have a great team game because no one could have every weapon, crappy or not. That's why you had classes so that THAT particular class of person could be used in THIS situation at a given time. If we keep it like FS2: fast-paced, objective based, tactical, and having certain ships being put into effect at certain situations. If you wanted to cut through with light infantry, use a specialist who can use a rifle and pistol and some other recon weapons.

If you want to tear ass through a whole squad of enemies, then get an Assault Trooper to just run through them with a minigun. That's why in FS2, if you want to intercept and kill someone, get a Perseus, or if you want to run it up against heavy enemies and cruisers, get an Ares or Eurinyes and then load it up with Kaysers. We dont have to add an ENTIRE new element of RPG-ness. That is good for games who like to focus around RPG elements.

[Drew]

the only thing we really need to do is balance each weapon effectivly, give it good strengths and weaknesses.  User preferance will take care of the rest.

think of a minigun that is cursed by a massive ammmo suck, innacuracy, imobility but can kill 30 vasudans in 10 seconds.
Or a some dude with an pistol that can hit weak points in armor at long range could be just as effective, and you would have more ammo and mobility.

[.::Tin Can::.]

That is why I made that WEAPONS CHART for you guys to use, hence:


SA-210: Heavy Arm Machine Rifle
Rounds: 50
Damage: Low
Delay: 0.5 Seconds
Reload Time: 8 Seconds
Accuracy: Low
Alt-Fire: Extreme Rapid-Shot (Accuracy is horribly reduced, while Delay is shortened)
Clips: 5