[Gank]

Karajorma, the stuff going on up the north isnt a very good example, while both sides are split mainly along religious lines, the actual dispute itself isn't over religion. People like Ian the pope is the antichrist Paisley would try and tell you that it is but really its a nationalist-unionist conflict. Sides arent actually split along religious lines, for example Ronnie Bunting, a former chief of staff for the INLA was a son of one of Ian Paisleys aides. All stems back to the plantation period, where Irish people were dispossessed of their land and people loyal to the crown, mainly scots, were granted it. Pretty much the same as what Israel is doing at the minute, except they're doing it on a much larger scale.

[karajorma]

That's my point. Those who say that the problems with muslims are just down simply to religion have made the same mistake. It's all about land and power.

Even the fundemntalists aren't pissed off about religion. That's just an excuse used to pull in more sheep to strap explosives to themselves.

What they are pissed off at is losing their land to the jews or having America  fiddle with their country when it suits America and then leaving them to rot afterwards.

Does anyone here think that Bin Laden turned against America simply because he became more religious while working with the Americans in Afghanistan?

It's all politics. Same with the christian militants too. As you say the muslims used to be quite tolerant of other faiths until things like the crusades changed their minds.

[Liberator]

Oh, yes, the invasion of Europe in the Middle Ages had nothing to do with it.

The Crusades were a response to the Islamic invasion of Europe, not the beginning of an Islamic jihad against the West.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Gank
Jesus Drew, back yourself up with some serious examples dont you, An Israeli site, a biblical site and one which actually refutes what your saying. Next time read your sources before you post them.  You want me to take you seriously tell me where in the Koran it says to be militant.

"Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors. Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed.... Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme." (Qur’an 2:190-192)

"As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. ... He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them." (47:4-6)

"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)

"The believers who stay at home––apart from those that suffer a grave impediment––are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)

"Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them ..." (5:34,35)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme" (8:39)

"Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)

"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." The Cow 2:216

"History tells us that, at first, Muhammad did not use force to induce the Jews, Christians and pagans to accept Islam. Later, however, when people and circumstances turned against him and when he began to gather an army to himself, he began telling his followers that the latest "revelations from Allah" were saying things like, "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (9:73) Thus began Muhammad’s career of warring in the name of Allah. Those defeated by Muhammad were offered protection if they would submit to the dictates of Islam. Those that refused to become Muslims had the "choice" either to pay tribute or to be put to death. This is the apparent "peace and tolerance" Muhammad offered to non-Muslims in his treaty with the people of Khaibar and to others. Non-Muslims were the Dhimmis (the people of obligation) and, as such, were to be "utterly subdued" (9:29)."

Karjorma: blow me

[Bobboau]

Num 31:15-18
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.  31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 31:18  But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deut 2:33-34
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.

Duet 3:6-7
And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. 3:7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves.

Duet 32:24-25
They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.



oh, and Eric Rudolph

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Rictor
You can't, nor can anyone, possibly claim to know the mind of every Arab, or even a  majority of them. To claim so would be small-minded and ignorant. This obviously differs from country to country, from sect to sect, but more signifcantly, from person to person. The fact that you seem to think that more than a billion people all share the same mindset is stereotypical to put it very lightly.

That is what the British thought of the Indians, the Americans (and others) of Africans and what to an extent, what Hitler thought of the Jews and Gypsies. Its is convenient excuse to unleash whatever hell you think necesarry, because all they understand it if force.

Please don't assosciate "Western" thinking with everything that is good and just (freedom, moderation, tolerance etc) and thereby imply that anyone who does not fully embrace Western ideals is morally inferior. Its simply not so. There seems to be this great myth that Western ideals are, self evidently, the best, and should be forced down the world's throat. Even people who do not want to use that wording, who would prefer to export Western ideals peacefully, still believe their thinking to be the best, and worthy of establishing around the world. That is, in a word, very intolerant.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578261171/104-3903408-8551102?v=glance#product-details

And don't misunderstand me - I most emphatically do not equate "Western" society with "good and just". I just use "Western" society as a term for the societies of nations such as the US, Canada, most of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc etc.

Originally posted by Rictor
But really, this isn't the Mafia. Respect isn't everything. Time to get over the macho chest-beating the realize that you earn someone's respect through kind and just actions, not through violence. Those who advocate peace deserve more respect than those who advocate war. To make war, you need only to inflate your ego and declare your supremacy, but to make peace you must bow your pride and meet your enemy on equal ground.

Amen.

Originally posted by Gank
Wrong again, Jews had complete religious freedom under Islamic rule. I dont recall any examples of Islamic nations forcing people to convert to Islam, could you please supply ome to back yourself up.

Nonsense. Even today, Christian Arabs are being persecuted and killed for their abandonment of Islam in Islamic nations.


Wish I had more time to properly respond to this thread, but you guys are all active when I'm asleep.

[Sandwich]

Oh, and for the POV of an Arab who isn't afraid to speak out on Islam and the Arab world, read Joseph Farah's columns over at www.wnd.com

[RandomTiger]

Why didnt they just arrest Achmed Yassin and try him in a court of law?

[Liberator]

Because that wouldn't solve anything.

[RandomTiger]

Why not?
What does blowing him up solve?

[Gank]

Drew ffs will you read what you're actually quoting. The very first line you quote says do not attack them first. Btw a lot of those quotes are actually wrong and most are taken out of context, where exactly did you get them, by the text you didnt bother to remove from the last one I'd say some Islam bashing biblical site. Not usually good sources of information. For example 9:1 says,

A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances

All after this, several of which you've quoted, deal with those non-muslims who arent Islams allies and those who wage war on Islam.

Libby, learn some history and geography, the crusades were launched to take the holy lands away from the muslims. Its not part of europe, nor was it ever ruled by those who launched the crusades. The only part of europe invaded by Islamic forces at that time was Spain, and the Crusaders werent even interested in that. As fr enleashing a jihad, thats exactly what it did. A jihad is literally a defense of the faith, it can only be unleashed to recapture land taken from muslims, not capture land populated by christians.

Sandwich, what you're saying is nonsence, with the same logic one could say all jews are murderers because a few settlers murder arabs, or all christians are violent because a few blow up abortion clinics.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by RandomTiger
Why not?
What does blowing him up solve?

Um.....insfoar as I can judge, it means there's one less target... and a thousand more recruits.

The explanation i've read (i.e. analysis somewhere) is that it's a show of force by Israel before the IDF withdraws and some of the settlements are destroyed.

[Rictor]

The settlements aren't being destroyed. From what I've read, Sharon's basic plan is to get rid of a few (not all) settlements in Gaza, and relocate them to the much more important West Bank. The move is actually quite advantageous to Israel, but Sharon managed to spin it as a humanitarian thing.

Oh and, no, blowing people up does not solve anything. However, had he been taken prisoner, the would either have to be executed or freed eventually, so its more or less the same scenario, only they wouldn't kill him with a missle, but rather with a gun (or whatever the prefered means of execution is in Israel.)

[Bobboau]

they already arested him once, it led to a hostige situation of sorts, though they were stupid to give in

[Gank]

Aye 6 mossad agents who bungled an asassination attempt in Jordan. Apparently he offered a 30 year truce to Israel around the same time, but it was dismissed as not serious.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Gank
Drew ffs will you read what you're actually quoting. The very first line you quote says do not attack them first. Btw a lot of those quotes are actually wrong and most are taken out of context, where exactly did you get them, by the text you didnt bother to remove from the last one I'd say some Islam bashing biblical site.
You read _again_ what im actually quoting
follow my tracks and read through all of that.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html
http://www.amalid.com/Islam/

All after this, several of which you've quoted, deal with those non-muslims who arent Islams allies and those who wage war on Islam.

read what you just said. Then read about a couple current events that have been happening. We arnt the alliles of Islam. Sure were allies with liberal islam, thats cuz they dont bomb ppl voluntarily. But not Islam.

THis is what they want to do to us.
“To kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military, is an individual duty of every Muslim who is able, in any country,” ~bin Laden

And this is what they think of us.
“Oh, Allah, destroy America as it is controlled by Zionist Jews … Allah will avenge, in the name of his Prophet, the colonialist settlers who are the descendents of monkeys and pigs …”~ Ikrima Sabri
Arafat-appointed Mufti of the Palestinian Authority

the murderers of humanity [the USA], the creators of the barbaric culture and the bloodsuckers of nations, are doomed to death. ~ Hafez Al-Barghuthi

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Drew


read what you just said. Then read about a couple current events that have been happening. We arnt the alliles of Islam. Sure were allies with liberal islam, thats cuz they dont bomb ppl voluntarily. But not Islam.

THis is what they want to do to us.
“To kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military, is an individual duty of every Muslim who is able, in any country,” ~bin Laden

And this is what they think of us.
“Oh, Allah, destroy America as it is controlled by Zionist Jews … Allah will avenge, in the name of his Prophet, the colonialist settlers who are the descendents of monkeys and pigs …”~ Ikrima Sabri
Arafat-appointed Mufti of the Palestinian Authority

the murderers of humanity [the USA], the creators of the barbaric culture and the bloodsuckers of nations, are doomed to death. ~ Hafez Al-Barghuthi

but you're quoting the most extremist people you can find.... especially as IIRC, Bin Ladin isn't even a cleric (i.e. he's not allowed under Islam to issue Fatwahs, much as he likes to).

I could probably go in the street and find ten people who would say we should kill all asylum seekers - it doesn't make that a valid representation of the population of Scotlands' opinions....

[ionia23]

Islamic Fanatic is to Islam as KKK is to Christianity.

[Gank]

Stereotyping a billion people with the words of three of the most extreme is a pretty bigoted thing to do drew. The first quote you originally posted is Islams attitude towards other religions. If they attack you kill them, but dont attack them first. It only applies to those who wage war on Islam based on religion. For those who attack Muslims for non religious reasons the Quran says:

Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.

Just go actually read the Quran, and come back when you're entitled to an opinion on it.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

[Rictor]

Or the Bible Belt for that matter.