[Rictor]

WTF?

Its two floating legs, not attached to anything.



oh and, woo! the mother had some nerves of steel

[Woolie Wool]

Getting your arm mangled in a piece of farm equipment is completely different.

Since most labor complications involve the head not fitting through the vaginal opening, there is a relatively safe (compared to slicing your abdomen open) method of ending those complications: kill the baby and crush or remove its brain, which is effectively a partial-birth abortion. It's easier than you think, because babies' bones are soft and there's a hole in the top of a baby's skull where the bones haven't knit together.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor

oh and, woo! the mother had some nerves of steel

And some tequilla, by the sounds of it

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Getting your arm mangled in a piece of farm equipment is completely different.

Since most labor complications involve the head not fitting through the vaginal opening, there is a relatively safe (compared to slicing your abdomen open) method of ending those complications: kill the baby and crush or remove its brain, which is effectively a partial-birth abortion. It's easier than you think, because babies' bones are soft and there's a hole in the top of a baby's skull where the bones haven't knit together.

Right.... so your reaction in her positions would be "I know, I'll kill my kid!"?

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by aldo_14


And some tequilla, by the sounds of it

Oh, yes, she must have had plenty of strong drink to have pulled that off.

Originally posted by aldo_14


Right.... so your reaction in her positions would be "I know, I'll kill my kid!"?

Most human beings would gladly kill ANY other human being to continue their own existence if things got desperate. Ever heard of those stories about shipwrecked sailors sustaining themselves through cannibalism? They're true. The survival instinct is perhaps the most powerful instinct of all in a normal person.

[Kazan]

While she should be applauded for bravery, she should also be told to never consider doing something like this again and to go on record discouraging this kind of behavior.

that was extremely dangerous and could have easily ended up in her killing herself and thereby killing the child as well - i bet she was trying to give birth on her back, ala stupid tradition which has been extended to many countries -- that is the hardest position to give birth in - the easiest is squatting

(PS: you know really where on-the-back came from - some king of england liked to wank off while watching his wives give birth)

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool


Oh, yes, she must have had plenty of strong drink to have pulled that off.


Most human beings would gladly kill ANY other human being to continue their own existence if things got desperate. Ever heard of those stories about shipwrecked sailors sustaining themselves through cannibalism? They're true. The survival instinct is perhaps the most powerful instinct of all in a normal person.

"Dr R Valle, of the Dr Manuel Velasco Suarez Hospital in San Pablo, Mexico, said: "She took three small glasses of hard liquor and, using a kitchen knife, sliced her abdomen in three attempts and delivered a male infant that breathed immediately and cried." "

You seem to get confused between the human survival instinct and the paternal instinct that drives a parent to put the life of a child above their own.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Most human beings would gladly kill ANY other human being to continue their own existence if things got desperate. Ever heard of those stories about shipwrecked sailors sustaining themselves through cannibalism? They're true. The survival instinct is perhaps the most powerful instinct of all in a normal person.

See, you're talking about individual-individual interactions. You're not talking about mother-offspring interactions. The general instincts for the two are completely different.

If you ever needed proof of this, this woman is it. Better yet, read medical literature discussing emergencies involving mother/child pairs. Mothers, regardless of species, will almost always place themselves in longt-term danger for the short-term survival of their offspring.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Kazan
While she should be applauded for bravery, she should also be told to never consider doing something like this again and to go on record discouraging this kind of behavior.

that was extremely dangerous and could have easily ended up in her killing herself and thereby killing the child as well - i bet she was trying to give birth on her back, ala stupid tradition which has been extended to many countries -- that is the hardest position to give birth in - the easiest is squatting

(PS: you know really where on-the-back came from - some king of england liked to wank off while watching his wives give birth)

Given that she'd already lost a child due to labour complications, I think it's likely she was aware of the best position to give birth in - or at least would be aware of the signs of a miscarriage.

I react very badly to critism blaming the mother for a miscarriage, because both my friends wife and my own mother have suffered from them - and as such i have a pretty strong feeling of empathy.

[Woolie Wool]

That instinct is really obsolete and detrimental to us (and more evidence against the religious idea of an intelligent designer) because unlike the young of many species, human infants and small children are COMPLETELY helpless without their parents. In the case of humans, the parent's life should really be considered more important than the offspring's, because the child cannot survive without the parents and only the parents have the ability to produce more children.

We have that instinct because many of our ancestors became self-sufficient within a year or less of their birth. However, it really doesn't work for humans because it takes a human being 11-16 (sometimes more) years to become self-sufficient and sexually mature.

[mikhael]

Nice redirection: arguing against the Darwinian fitness of an instinct rather than admitting you were wrong about the instinct in the first place.

[Rictor]

Most mothers would gladly give their lives for that of their children. You can argue that this shouldn't be so, but the fact remains that it is.

[Kazan]

aldo: i didn't say anytihng about miscarages being her fault

however SOCIETY is a different thing, and encouraging improper birthing position that we have been doing for several hundred years has not helped the miscarriage rate

[Flipside]

You really don't know about mothers and children do you Woolie. A parent will die defending it's child, that's written into almost all of us. You are expecting a mother to crush her birthing childs head and pull out the brain? And this seems like a logical thing to do?

[Woolie Wool]

It is the rational thing for a still reproductively viable mother whose life is at stake to do.

[mikhael]

oh, its perfectly logical, Flipside. Just not perfectly reasonable or practicable.

It really does make sense, in a cold, calculating, lucid, self-centered state of mind.

Fortunately, there's not a human being on the planet that exists in such a state of mind all the time (or for longer than a few minutes at a time really). Certainly not one of the pregnant women I've ever met has been in anything resembling a cold, calculating, lucid state of mind.

[Odyssey]

[color=cc9900]I don't know about you Woolie, but I don't have pointy ears. My society hasn't suppressed emotion yet.[/color]

[Kazan]

Woolie: generally I am the all-logical heartless one here - however i do know that human instincts will override rationality any day of the week - and maternal instinct is the single hardest one to overcome - stop being a nit

[Flipside]

It's not logical anyway, the logical thing is for the child to live and the mother to die if there is a choice. The child is the future after all. Of course, this also assumes it's 'logical' to have proper fostering/nursery facilities etc. You can't just say one thing should be logical when everything else affecting the situation isn't.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Kazan
aldo: i didn't say anytihng about miscarages being her fault

however SOCIETY is a different thing, and encouraging improper birthing position that we have been doing for several hundred years has not helped the miscarriage rate

I know  (just in case someone picked up on it and did)

 I was really just saying why i feel somewhat strongly about this..