[Kazan]

Rictor: those are _TREATY_ _OBLIGATIONS_ from World War II -- yes it's "subjugation" if we exercise force on them - which we don't.   They started a huge war, lost and are suffering the consequence of having to obey the peace treaty

we could have chosen not to protect them and help them rebuild their countries

[Rictor]

exactly, World War 2. That was 60 years ago. Hardly anyone who served in WW2 is even alive anymore. This generation  has done nothing wrong. And if you seriously think that Japan is a threat to anyone anymore (except North Korea) then you're out of your mind. If we're going to start getting legal about it, how many treaties hs the US broken?

and still, thats around 130 more nations to account for. Do they all have treaty obligations?

[Genryu]

As Rictor said, WW2 was 60 years ago. You know, in 60 years, the world changes. And Japan has finished being rebuilt a looooooong time ago. And as for the American troops protecting them, if China decide to invade (only country with the power to really do so), the difference made by the american troops will amount to nothing. And I do seem to remember the soldier stationned in Japan being implicated in : Rape, weapons smuggling, and other joyous things like that.
And you wonder why people want them gone ?

[Flipside]

I may be wrong, but I think that treaty ended about 10 years ago anyway, the agreement I seem to recall was for 50 years.

[Rictor]

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://video.csupomona.edu/streaming/inc/images/stclair.jpg&imgrefurl=http://video.csupomona.edu/streaming/inc/ht_index.html&h=45&w=60&sz=3&tbnid=0j8dUQks5lQJ:&tbnh=45&tbnw=60&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djeffrey%2Bstclair%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8

click the first interview, with Chalmers Johnson. He's one of the leading authors that I know of when it comes to the global network of US miltary bases. For most of his life, his primary interest has been US-Japanese relations, so he's very qualified to speak about US bases and specifically Okinawa. His job used to be as analyst for the CIA, so I don't think anyone can accuse him of being a left pinko commie. I'll be asking for Sorrows of Empire for my birthday, it sounds like a brilliant read.

I highly recommend it (the interview, not the book which I haven't read yet).

[Flipside]

Hmmmmmmmmm.... Does sound interesting, it's kinda creepy to see some businessman-looking bloke cooly talking about clandestine operations to overthrow foreign governments.

[Rictor]

A coup can more often be traced back to the Armani than to the military berret.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Kazan
Stealth & SadisticSid: you two are talking about another guy with a similiar name and a mixup happened earlier

ah yes.  but i knew that there was something with Kerry too... apparently (after reading this thread) it's his admitting to burning villages and shooting civilians.

OK  thanks for the clarification

[Kazan]

yeah he said something like "like most other soldiers there i followed orders ..." the orders being to do that -- he's not particularily proud of it

[Deepblue]

Originally posted by Kosh



Republicans are generally liars, so it is not a good idea to trust things like that.

I'm amazed at how brainwashed people can be.

As rictor already pointed out, he admitted it himself. Thats why the Dems really are trying the shut out the SBVFT because they can't feasibly deny their claims. Irony is the dems are the party of free speech (supposedly).

[Deepblue]

Originally posted by Kazan
yeah he said something like "like most other soldiers there i followed orders ..." the orders being to do that -- he's not particularily proud of it

Again, according to most of the people that were with him, those things just are not true.

[Rictor]

The trouble is, he wasn't drafted, he enlisted. So, he intentionally went to kill Vietnamese peasants.

[Kazan]

deepblue: if you're citing those veterans supporting bush: THEY WEREN'T WITH HIM

[Kazan]

Originally posted by Rictor
The trouble is, he wasn't drafted, he enlisted. So, he intentionally went to kill Vietnamese peasants.

oh that's total and complete bull**** and you know it

furthermore he volunteered _before_ vietnam started

[Ford Prefect]

I just think it's senseless debating about what he did in Vietnam. The entire war was an atrocity. They were shot at during the night by the same people who they had seen picking rice the previous day. Nobody knew what the hell was going on. Villages got torched, people got involuntarily relocated, and it was just an all-around horrific, nightmarish mess. Whatever Kerry actually did, you can bet it wasn't anything that was unusal, and also that there were people who did much worse.

As for the ads where Vietnam vets talk about how Kerry didn't earn his medals, in all probability those are people who were angry at him because he protested the war when he returned home. They arrive at the conclusion that because he protested the war, he was attacking the soldiers, so he must not deserve his medals.

[Deepblue]

Where do you get your info Kaz? They were with him, swiftboats travel and go into combat in groups.

Your implying that at least 64 people are lying and only John Kerry is telling the truth. Yeah right.

[Rictor]

*sigh*

He didn't miss one single day of duty on account of his injuries. Anything bigger than a scratch, and he would have been out for atleast a day or two. Those three purple hearts are illegitimate, and everyone knows it. They were for cuts and bruises, and one was self inflicted.

Kaz: He enlisted in the Navy in 1966, several years after the outbreak of hostilites in Vietnam. Don't try to slip that sort of bull**** past me, its easily verifiable with a quick Google search or on Wikipedia. Or maybe you just made an honest mistake, well, my statement stands. He enlisted knowing full well what lay ahead.

[Kazan]

Rictor: i'll have to doublecheck, but i could have sworn he volunteered before -- either way your comment about "he signed up to kill civilians" is total bull****

[Bobboau]

I don't think that was his point, that was just a general cheap shot at the military in general, haven't you been paying atention to anything he has ever said? I mean it'd be like An0n posting gay porn and people saying he was gay.

[Ford Prefect]

So what if Rictor posted gay military porn?