[Flipside]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040820/ap_on_el_pr/nader_ballot_access

You know, after all the confusion and accusations last time, I cannot help but be a bit suspicious about this..... I mean, let's face it, when it comes to 'legal voting requirements' theres no way on Earth that the current American government can get on a high-horse

[Rictor]

Democrats are doing everything in their power, legal and otherwise, to keep Nader off the ballots.

Yeah, ain't democracy grand. Kerry accuses the Vietnam Vets of demonizing him, but the Democrats are doing it 10x worse. In one instance, Nader needed to get X amount of people together to sign a petition or whatever that would get him the ballot in that state. So what the Democrats did is they got their lackeys to go to the convention, fill up the building, so that the real Nader supporters couldn't all fit inside, and then not sign the petition. They physically filled up the building so that the people who needed to sign the petition couldn't get in.

The whole affair makes me ****ing sick. American politics is a joke. Its not a circus, its the circus that all the employees from other circuses go to.

[Flipside]

You know, there was a time when election meant choice

It's becoming more and more apparent that no matter how people vote the same party is going to get in.

Kinda reminds me of the UK for some reason...

Oh well, at least the Liberals here are still alive, if somewhat jaded.

[Rictor]

can someone even name one thing, one single thing, that Kerry does better than Nader. The American Left seems to think that Nader is more or less right on about the issues, but for some reason they hate him and keep voting for the Democrats. If he's better you asshats, why not vote for him?

just one issue. as a token gesture. One tiny little issue where Kerry's position is more desireable. To all you Kerry fanboys: name it.

[aldo_14]

Classic problem of a 2 party system.  People don;t think the (their) 3rd party has any chance of winning, so they vote for the 'big'  party to get reid of the incumbent - or prevent the main challenger getting in.

[Flipside]

I'm going to do a Nostradamus here, and try to predict what is going to happen in the next 120 years if things go on this way, I've worded it rather radically, but I'm not trying to start a flamewar, just trying to put it directly

Within 20 years : Regardless of which party gets into power, I predict an increase in secularism and religious fervour. I see an increase in religion and race related violence.

Within 50 years : Oil consumption and water demand at an all-time high, people suddenly start realising that the original Oil-supply quotes were assuming that the population would not increase by over 50% in the next 20 years. Energy demand will become a matter of War once again, as areas of America tended by Oil-based generators suffer from blackouts. Hydrogen and Solar power which was left far too late, can only provide a tiny fraction of the National Grid, and generators cannot be replaced fast enough due to economy problems caused by the Oil Crisis.

Within 100 years : Some Southern states, seeing themselves as 'Christian States' start to demand a church-led leadership which would replace a Washington-Based leadership, effectively expressing a wish to become like the Vatican, a country of their own accord. This will not be granted, but the cracks will start to show by now.

Within 130 years, the massive debt from obtaining Oil and other Energy finally backlashes and the economy collapses, thousands die from starvation and violence and America is left with a humanitarian crisis.

If you think I am overplaying this, read the ending of just about every major empire, corruption seeps in at the top, Wars are fought for land/gold whatever the local demand is at the time. Eventually as people turn more and more to religion to fulfill themselves, in many cases certain 'home' states will start to cause trouble, this is usually the first sign that things are terribly wrong. As the cycle of 'gain over relations' continues, the empire eventually collapses in on itself as it finds out it theres nothing more it can take and can no longer afford to take anything else.

From Rome to Russia, I think pretty much every one of them has gone the same way I hope it doesn't to be honest, it would be a terrible disaster, but unless the people in power can see beyond their own bank accounts, I can honestly see things starting to go this way.

[Ford Prefect]

Only if the Vogons don't get here first.

[Flipside]

The Vogons wouldn't touch us with a bargepole, they know a race of complete Blarks when they see one

[Ford Prefect]

Haha. "Hey, you sass that hoopy Ralph Nader? There's a frood who really knows where his towel is!"

Actually, this is what I think the future holds:

Beginning towards the end of the 21st century, humanity will be in a state of economic, political, and social chaos. In a last-ditch effort to save the race from utter destruction, a project of immense scientific and cultural implications will be undertaken by a joint effort between the United States, the European Union, China, and Japan. They will attempt to create a group of superhumans, capable of leading the world into a new Utopian age. The project's code name: Project Boss.  

After careful deliberation, the team's scientists will eventually decide that the clone subject will be none other than Tony Danza. Why? Because he's the boss. Using the latest technology, a handful of Tony Danza clones will be created and charged with reorganizing the world logistically, politically, and socially. However, cloning at this point will still be a risky science, and the Tony Danza clones will begin to exhibit mental instability. Seeing that the project threatens to spin out of hand, the world will attempt to pull the plug, but it will be too late.

The Bosses will begin to consolidate their power by building whole armies of their clones, arming them, and establishing a regime based on cold, emotionless efficiency. Humanity will fight back, and the largest, most devastating war the world has ever seen will ensue as the shattered remnants of the free world fight tooth and nail for every inch against the ruthless hordes of Tony Danza clones. The scorched battlefields will echo throughout the grey days and the long, cold nights with the chilling war chant, "Who's the boss? Who's the boss?"

[Flipside]

Could be worse, can you imagine an army of Fender-wielding Bruce Springsteens?

LOL Sorry, I just got the Vogons joke, not awake tonight

[Blue Lion]

There is a reason Nader isn't even really in a party anymore. I for one am glad.

[Flipside]

Hmmmmmmmmmm..... difficult to say, if I felt it were a natural evolution in American politics then fair enough, but I'm more inclined to think of it as an 'induced evolution'. Basically equivalent to the Tories and Labour ganging up to squeeze the Liberals out of existence. Such an act in the UK would probably only serve to increase the liberal vote, but then, we are a contrary and stubborn people I suppse, whether you agree with him or not, he needs to exist in politics.

To reduce the system deliberately down to 2 parties which carry roughly the same opinions and views would be an unhealthy option for American politics in my opinion.

[Rictor]

I think you're being overly pessimistic Flipside. I mean, everyone from Aldous Huxley to George Orwell has been predicting doom and gloom for humanity for years, and I believe that at the time, they honestly meant it. And they have all been wrong. When they said "we have to get our act together or catastrophe is unavoidable", well we didn't get our act together and yet somehow the catastrophe was avoided.

No offence to you, but that sounds more like science fiction that you're writing

There is an ever-increasing base of socially and politcally conscious people around the world. Some, like yourself, because they have been exposed to a rather open and enlightened social environment, where their education and exploration have lead quite naturally to a peaceful and just world view. Others, like many in Latin America, have arrived at the same conclusion by the exact opposite means, oppression and inequality also lead to a desire for peace and justice.

I think that yes, empires have all fallen in more or less the same way, but I think that the nature of the current global state of affairs is quite different than ever before. The American empire is on its way out, what remains to be seen iss what will become of Asia, the EU and China. I have some hopes for South America, but nothing really specific. Military force as a means of world control is ending, and economic power is set to take its place. Thats why I think that China and East Asia are the places to watch.

Without getting to deeply into the details, my current outlook is cautious optimism. A better world is not impossible, in fact, I think its inevitable. What I'm worried about is what comes after that. I predict a huge cultural revolution. When all of mankind is finally fed and clothed and at peace, what then? I forsee human thought very quickly breaking new frontiers, and as a result, human actions will also change. To use a very appropriate analogy, (from the HHGTTG of course), I believe that we are now very close to the end of the Survival stage, and about to enter wholeheartedly the Inquiry stage. Beyond the end of the Survival stage, I really can't predict with any certainty.

[Ghostavo]

That's where they get the "either you are with us, or against us" mentality...

I'm glad to live in a country with too many parties

[Flipside]

Yes, I'm possibly underestimating Human Nature to be honest, but we tend to go through existence like a lucky drunk-driver, each time just missing the tree by inches because for one split second every muscle in the body actually did the right thing at the right time, and yet we always manage to steer the car towards another tree

The whole energy thing concerns me greatly though, I really do get the feeling we are going to feel the sting before things get better

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Blue Lion
There is a reason Nader isn't even really in a party anymore. I for one am glad.

Explain why. You can't expect to convince someone with two sentences. And besides, Nader left the Greens cause they're a sinking ship. By electing Cobb and opting for the "safe states" strategy, they've just sign their own death warrant.

Does it seem strange to you that they are a political party who's very goal it is to not have an impact['i]. They just couldn't stand the nasty glares they get on the streets, from dumbasses without a clue. They were tricked into feeling guilty for Bush by the very oligarchs who they are out to destroy.

To reduce the system deliberately down to 2 parties which carry roughly the same opinions and views would be an unhealthy option for American politics in my opinion.

already happened. Its healthy for politics, but not for the people - be they the American people or just people around the people. The ruling elite are mainting control, thats their job. They are keeping the power to themselves and fighting with all they got against greater democracy at home and for empire abroad.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Flipside
Yes, I'm possibly underestimating Human Nature to be honest, but we tend to go through existence like a lucky drunk-driver, each time just missing the tree by inches because for one split second every muscle in the body actually did the right thing at the right time, and yet we always manage to steer the car towards another tree

The whole energy thing concerns me greatly though, I really do get the feeling we are going to feel the sting before things get better

Hmm, my solution to that would be to get some government with lots of resources, say China, Russia, Japan or India, and little control over oil reserves, to finance a large-scale shift to reusable energy. America doesn't want to do it becuase the people who run the country stand to loose their whole business empire, and besides, the US has control over almost all the world's oil, so they're not worried. But nations like India or Japan, they don't have all that much oil, and yet their energy demands are large and growing. So, they are more open to peruasion regarding reusable and environment-friendly energy than the US.

What we need right now is a viable test-case. We need a country that runs primarily on reusable energy to serve as a test-bed for the new technologies and more importantly, to show the world it can be done. Once we have that, I think that the EU and others will be quick to adopt it.

[Flipside]

Oddly enough, there are companies that manufacture roof-tiles with solar cells built into them. It has been pointed out to our government that if 1/3 of our population got roof SP Roof tiles and were hooked into the grid, we would cut our energy spending by 85% in the next ten years alone.

Our government, however, is unwilling to make the initial outlay in the way of benefits to people who choose SP Roof tiles, or putting subsidies on the price of them, making them cheaper than normal roof tiles, despite the fact it would save them many hundreds of times the initial cost in the long run. Why is this? Because it is a longer than 4-year project, and governments plan on a 4-year basis. Because if it starts when the Tories are in power, but doesn't start to make a profit until Labour are in power, the Tories think this would glorify Labour :/

It's the most noticeable weakness in the election system, there needs to be more 'long term' thinking.

[Rictor]

I was under the impression, probably mistakenly, that the Tories were done for. They may get a large minority, but it seems to me that they're not going to be winning any elections in the near future. Same in Canada. The Liberals are here to stay. Even when the two existing right-wing parties united, and amidst a huge scandal involving the Liberals, they still won. Its a minority government, but they won.

I don't think people are going to regress, socially speaking, to elect a conservative party. But this is all just assumptions, considering I know very little about the current political and social climate in the UK.

[Flipside]

The Tories are a bit of an unknown quantity to be exact, if it had not been for the Iraq War, I think Blair would sail this election as easily as the two before it, but now I am far from sure. The Minorities have lost faith with him, which includes large areas of London and other large industrial cities, Labours 'heartland' as it were.

Most people can remember the Tories in power in their lifetimes, whereas considerably less can remember the Liberals in power, so I think personally the undecided vote will swing towards the conservatives. Though you may see a hung parliament this time round, which might well ruffle more than a few feathers