[Stunaep]

Originally posted by aldo_14


I would not, however, fall into the trap of blaming this on international terrorism as Putin will - the reasons stem from Chechnya, no matter how much he would want to divert scrutiny from that.

Have you been following the news? For that matter have you even read my posts? If anything, Putin will do everything to blame it on the Chechenyans! Hell, he's been saying that the Chechenyans are involed in the actions of Al-Qaeda! He's been blaming the screw-ups of their own secret service on Chechenyans. It is in Russias best interests, to make seem like the Chechenyans were responsible for the hostage crisis, because it will turn the islamic and caucasian countries, who have previously been pro-chechen to the russian cause.

[Stunaep]

Originally posted by Fergus
"the Russian media is increasingly state controlled"

A point about that, it turns out (slightly unrelated but very important) that jurnalists have been "disappearing" in Russia.  You make up your own mind.

Among them the journalist who revealed Russia's neglect of all human rights and warfare rules in the second Chechenian war. How convenient.

[ionia23]

He blames it on the Chechyans because a group of people representing them, by invitiation or not, continue to carry out these merciless attacks.  Unless you happen to be Spain, Honduras, or the Phillipines, terrorism won't work.

[Rictor]

Sure as hell worked for the Russians though.

[ionia23]

I don't get it....

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Stunaep


Have you been following the news? For that matter have you even read my posts? If anything, Putin will do everything to blame it on the Chechenyans! Hell, he's been saying that the Chechenyans are involed in the actions of Al-Qaeda! He's been blaming the screw-ups of their own secret service on Chechenyans. It is in Russias best interests, to make seem like the Chechenyans were responsible for the hostage crisis, because it will turn the islamic and caucasian countries, who have previously been pro-chechen to the russian cause.

By blaming it on international terrorism, Putin can try to deflect / prevent criticism of his policies in Chechnya, and also can attempt to use this to gain international support and aid.

I didn;t say he would claim it was, for example, an Al-Queda operation.  What he will and, IIRC, is doing is associating Al-Queda with Chechen rebels for the above reason.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3625536.stm
" Certainly, the taking of children as hostages will have lost the Chechens rebels international sympathy. It will help Russia's arguments. One of the features of the war in Chechnya has been the lack of pressure on Russia, which has managed to link its own crisis to the wider American-led war against al-Qaeda. President Putin has made common cause with President Bush. "

[ionia23]

So, is Russia's who reason for refusing to let go of Chechnya a pride issue?  Is that all there is?

[Rictor]

erm, check in the other thread, gank mentioned oil and oil pipelines running through chechnya, which seems reason enough to me. it would appear that the Caucuses are to Russia what the Middle-East is to America.

[ionia23]

You make some pretty strong presumptions about what the middle east is to america.

[Rictor]

of course, how wrong of me. It is certain that no one, particularly not a father and son, have shown a rather strong inclinatiion towards, shall we call it an obsession, with the Middle-East.

It is also utterly certain[] that the US taken a consistantly hands-off approach to the region, particularly militarily. Another sure fact is that region is most certainly not rich in oil, and that by no means has any nation tried to secure that oil by force.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by aldo_14


By blaming it on international terrorism, Putin can try to deflect / prevent criticism of his policies in Chechnya, and also can attempt to use this to gain international support and aid.

I didn;t say he would claim it was, for example, an Al-Queda operation.  What he will and, IIRC, is doing is associating Al-Queda with Chechen rebels for the above reason.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3625536.stm
" Certainly, the taking of children as hostages will have lost the Chechens rebels international sympathy. It will help Russia's arguments. One of the features of the war in Chechnya has been the lack of pressure on Russia, which has managed to link its own crisis to the wider American-led war against al-Qaeda. President Putin has made common cause with President Bush. "

IN GENERAL,
The US is fighting a general radical mindset. You can't just blame every on Al-Queda. Neither can russian. HOWEVER, I think you guys are right that he is trying to get international sympathy especially from the US by carelessly tieing it to Al Queda. We also have not gotten involved in the region partly because it is considered an internal russian problem and we don't have any national interests. And we are under the illusion that Russia is capable of making the right decision.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor
of course, how wrong of me. It is certain that no one, particularly not a father and son, have shown a rather strong inclinatiion towards, shall we call it an obsession, with the Middle-East.

It is also utterly certain[] that the US taken a consistantly hands-off approach to the region, particularly militarily. Another sure fact is that region is most certainly not rich in oil, and that by no means has any nation tried to secure that oil by force.

I'm not even going to waste time with the 'obsession' rhetoric.  That's just liberal buzzword crap and you know it.  

Yeah, of course there's resources there we'd like to have greater influence with, if not control of.  If you play "Civilization" or "Warcraft" or anything like that, prime strategy against an opponent is control of resources, preferably there.  When it comes time for reconstruction Iraq is going to have to pay the bills, but that economy has been so battered they won't have squat for cash.  How are they going to pay it?  Oil.  At least that's my thinking.

I'd like to think this would mean the return of below-a-dollar-a-gallon gas prices over here but I doubt it'll change prices at all.  it will, however, make a number of refinery owners very rich.  their costs will go down, our costs will remain the same as we will pay whatever the price happens to be.

Preventing Iraq from turning into another Yemen is good for everybody, not just America.  If there's anything people ought to know by know is that the "war on terror", whatever that means, isn't America against Islam.  No matter how you paint it, it isn't.  And we aren't the only targets.  Incidents in Spain and Russia should back that point up.

You seem to be under the impression our goal is to Americanize Iraq.  It is not.  Creating conditions for better trade and crushing out hotbeds for terrorist to hide out in is.

I agree with the principles.  I do not agree with how we went about it.

[redmenace]

Just an FYI,
the deathtoll is being reported at being 200+
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm

[Sigma957]

Just heard on the news that 200 people have died in in that hostage situation.

[StratComm]

Yeah the gym roof collapsed on top of a large number of hostages.  Most unfortunate turn of events, but sadly I've been expecting it.  Russia's prefered solution to these crises seems to be brute force.

[ionia23]

Did IQ's drop suddenly while I was away?  Read the damned news.  Hell, pick a variety of sources to figure it out.  The Russians didn't kill these kids.  The hostage takers opened fire on them.  These were a whole load of unarmed, starved, and dehydrated KIDS in a gymnasium?  What part of that doesn't get through peoples ****ing heads?

Apologies for the rant, but I'm about sick of this ****.  It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out who the bad guys are in this.

[Vanguard]

Then go take a break.  You're about as emotional as the terrorists.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Vanguard
Then go take a break.  You're about as emotional as the terrorists.

You're probably right.  Plus it beats the alternative, such as supporting them.

[Vanguard]

Teenage-like temper tantrums against the terrorists or teenage-like temper tantrums for the terrorists.  We are screwed.

[Stunaep]

The news source comes from where? ITAR-TASS? The prominent Russian media?

If some of you could understand russian, I'd suggest you go watch RTVi, the only russian channel, that is still free media (and thus, not showing in Russia, only in foreign states).

I for one, have heard from multiple sources, that the Russians were the ones, who opened fire. You have to understand, that russia isn't the United States. Free media doesn't exist in there. You cannot just say "I've heard from a variety of sources" and expect that to cover it. If the sources are for example, ITAR-TASS, NTV, and Russian Goverment, you can be pretty sure, that you are getting the "adjusted" version of what happened.

And unless you haven't noticed, Putin already HAS international support for his policies in chechenya. All the atrocities that Russia has commited in there during the second Chechenyan war are being overlooked by most of the free world, in the interests of continued good relations with russia. What he needs now, is to gain the support of the caucasian nations, and islamic nations, who support chechenya, and this is precisely what this crisis is accomplishing.

another suspicious fact
After having two days to surround the school, the russian special forces, most of whom have KGB training, let several of the terrorists escape. Go figure.