Author Topic: The Ancients  (Read 7439 times)

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Offline Solatar

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The Allies also have the intellect of two species, so that may or may not help (technologically same, but diverse thinking patterns maybe?)

 

Offline Kosh

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Quote
Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
Has anyone made a campaign using the ancient's ships that come with inferno??



Not that I know of, but I personally would really like to see on (or two). :)
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Offline Bobboau

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I was planning on makeing one arounfd the time I started makeing them, it involved the anchents engaged in a war on sevral fronts with sevral weaker races when suddenly the Shivans arive, they don't recognise the threat fast enough continue to fight the other races and they get there asses handed to them. basicly exactly like the great war only bigger and the factions don't ally themselves.
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo


Where did you get this idea?  I can't remember reading anything along these lines anywhere within either game.  I might be forgetting it (it does sound very familiar) but I simply don't recall where it might have come from.


Both the Bosch monologue and the Alpha 1 (FS1 engame) ones have speculative references that the Ancients were simply a layer upon layers of destroyed species, but the ancient monologues themselves never reveal anything.

 

Offline Bobboau

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it's made prety clear that that's what V had in mind.
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Offline ionia23

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It's amazing how much we have, but how little we know.  It's one of the reasons I'm grateful so many people in campaign development have made the effort to bring our various theories to fruition, and those in the SCP Project giving us more toys to play with.

Even in the FS-future world of "Inferno", we still know as much then as we do in the current FS universe - diddly squat.  I don't know of any campaigns set further in the future than that (that are at a playable stage.  anyone???)

Now, here's something for all you survivors of the subspace node collapse at the Volition Bulletin Boards.

Does anyone remember a time when 'supposedly' the script work for the first mission of FS3 got out onto the net?  If I recall correctly, the mission takes place 15 or so years after the ending of FS2.  We're opening the newly constructed Sol jump gate for the first time.  Something goes wrong and a second subspace node snaps open on the other side of the system.  A Sathanas comes out and, rather than attacking, starts transmitting.  from what we're able to decipher (ETAK technology)....it's a distress signal.

i don't remember the rest.

I'm also remembering a node map that had sections of Shivan space mapped out on it...including 3 Dyson Spheres...

I'm also remembering a campaign someone was working on that was to introduce a 4th race.  I know they flew very blocky purple ships.

If any of this rings a bell.....
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by ionia23


Does anyone remember a time when 'supposedly' the script work for the first mission of FS3 got out onto the net?  If I recall correctly, the mission takes place 15 or so years after the ending of FS2.  We're opening the newly constructed Sol jump gate for the first time.  Something goes wrong and a second subspace node snaps open on the other side of the system.  A Sathanas comes out and, rather than attacking, starts transmitting.  from what we're able to decipher (ETAK technology)....it's a distress signal.

That wasn't a FS3 script.  It was a script by someone who had applied for a staff writer job at Volition (but not a script for his application).

Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
I'm also remembering a node map that had sections of Shivan space mapped out on it...including 3 Dyson Spheres...

Behind Enemy Lines.  Campaign with originally the same script as above.

Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
I'm also remembering a campaign someone was working on that was to introduce a 4th race.  I know they flew very blocky purple ships.


Hidden Terror, IIRC.  New enemy for the Shivans.

 

Offline Vaelinx

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Was Behind Enemy Lines ever completed?  When I go to their site, it seems that it was dropped...  But it looked like it had some intertesting ideas.
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Offline ionia23

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

That wasn't a FS3 script.  It was a script by someone who had applied for a staff writer job at Volition (but not a script for his application).

Behind Enemy Lines.  Campaign with originally the same script as above.

Hidden Terror, IIRC.  New enemy for the Shivans.


Good, at least now I know.  Thanks for clearing up my flailing memory :)

btw, your "location" listing is a riot.
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Offline ionia23

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Quote
Originally posted by Vaelinx
Was Behind Enemy Lines ever completed?  When I go to their site, it seems that it was dropped...  But it looked like it had some intertesting ideas.


there's still a page for it over at volitionwatch, but nothing new in four years.  The system map is up though.  Gives some great ideas.

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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Vaelinx
Was Behind Enemy Lines ever completed?  When I go to their site, it seems that it was dropped...  But it looked like it had some intertesting ideas.


Ascraeus (the guy who applied to V and wrote the pseudo-FS3 storyline) left over storyline differences, IIRC.  He wasn't happy over the introduction of Sunspot Mining or something, in particular.

 

Offline TrashMan

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What I myself wonder is - did the V dev's actually fully developed the shivan idea, or are they just as in the dark as we are? I mean, as far as we know, they themselves didn't know what to put in for the Shivans, so the left them mysterious.

I wish I could actually ask a V dev that...
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Offline Kosh

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
I was planning on makeing one arounfd the time I started makeing them, it involved the anchents engaged in a war on sevral fronts with sevral weaker races when suddenly the Shivans arive, they don't recognise the threat fast enough continue to fight the other races and they get there asses handed to them. basicly exactly like the great war only bigger and the factions don't ally themselves.




That would be a really cool campaign. Are you still going to do it?
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Offline varus

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Anyone else consider the idea that the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis was possibly once a major Ancient system?

I think the Sathanas fleet was the core force that killed the Ancients, with the Lucifers, Demons and Ravanas being second-line ships (much like the Hatshepsuts, Orions and Hecates are the lead GTVA force, with the Deimos and Sobek corvettes doing most of the dirty work around the time of FS2 [For example, when did the Aquatine ever do anything combat-wise, except when it was attacked?]).  

We know that, as the Ancients expanded their empire, using Knossos Devices to create new nodes, they run into the Shivans.  Someone shoots first, and then the Ancients manage to get the Shivans really upset (or some Shivan admiral said "Oooh.  A nice new target.  Lets kill them").  Either way, the Shivans now chased the Ancients through space.

It took the GTVA three decades or so to build the Colossus.  Even if the Shivans have more advanced construction methods, I still can't see a Sathanas taking less than a decade to build.  So, assuming they had 10 Sathanas-capable shipyards, that's a minimum of a century to build the Capellan fleet.  And I don't think they would have thrown everything they had into Capella.  This means that the Sathanas project was underway before the Terran-Vasudan war began.

Given currently known Shivan ships, we have the choice of Lucifers or Sathanas killing the Shivans.  We know from the monologues that the Lucifers were at least a significant threat (as there was the whole shields-don't-work-in-subspace bit).  But, I don't see Lucifers alone being the only threat.  

We know one Lucifer was created, and destroyed in the node to Sol.  (My personal opinion is that the Lucifer fleet was a backwater 'garrison' force, who gathered that there was trouble brewing by detecting the TV war, and decided to gain some glory by killing the upstarts.)  Yet given the scale of what we know the Shivan force to be at the end of FS2, it seems improbable that if Lucifers are a main weapon in the Shivan armada, they'd have one stuck out in no-Shivans-land beyond Ross-128.  

Yet, the Shivans have demonstrated that they won't commit Sathani to attacks unless it is absolutely necessary.  In FS2, they don't make any moves with SJ1 until a Ravana is annihilated, and the upstart Terrans and Vasudans continue to intrude into the nebula.  

This is therefore my picture of the Ancient/Shivan war:

An Ancient expeditionary force is travelling through space, setting up Knossos devices, and travelling through them.  After opening one device, they discover a strange group of red-black ships (my view is Rakshashas or Cains).  Being the greedy Ancients they are, they open fire, damaging or destroying some of the ships.  Feeling confident they will win, they call in their Ancient buddies, to slaughter this new race.  The Ancient extermination force arrives, and they head through the nodes in this new sector, hunting Shivans,

However, the Shivans are not going to let the Ancients beat them, and thus call in their own reinforcements - a couple of Lucifers and Ravanas, and Demons.  The two fleets one system away from the initial encounter.  The Demons, and a couple of Ravanas bite the dust, but the Lucifers spearhead a counterattack, driving the Ancients out of the node.  Togeather with wings of Dragons and Maras, the Lucifers keep the Ancients running, backtracking them through the Knossos devices, using their ability to travel through unstable/small (See Petrarch's desription of the plan to seal Capella if you have questions about this)  nodes to counteract the Knossos shutdowns.  The Ancient expeditionary force had called home to let them know trouble is coming, and the Ancient fleet rallies on the entrance to an important system to mount a defense (much as the GTVA fleet rallied to try to stop SJ1.)

When the nearly ruined expeditionary force arrives in the system, the Ancients feel a bit of fear, as they see how badly the force had been mauled.  Then the Shivans arrive, and a titanic disaster starts begins.  The ancients can eventually wear down the shields, destroying a significant portion of the fighter force, but focusing their weapons on the Lucifers to take down the shields takes too long to do much damage (possibly one or two go down, but at the cost of more than half of the Ancient's fleet).  Now, the Shivans pursue the fleeing ancients into their other systems, by following the Knossos trails.  But, they also start adding Sathani to the mix - the Lucifers keep the Ancients occupied, while one or two Sathani hang back, blasting ships out of space at a fast rate.  

Finally, the Shivans come to the Ancient homeworld.  Here, they are frustrated by the futile defense attempts of the Ancients, and decide to nuke them.  So, they use their Star-nuker gun, and fry the system.  Then they head out to the other systems, to wipe out the leftover ancients the fun way.  Leaving a swirling cloud of gas marking the final resting place of a great empire.  

With their fleets, shipyards and homeworld gone, the last few ancient bases huddle silently, nervously watching the void of space for the arrival of the destroyers.   One by one the bases are destroyed.  Until only one remains, in a system later called Altair.  Here, flights of Seraphim and Maras cut down out of the skies, killing the ancients in a matter of minutes, and then departing, leaving ruins - and the key to the Shivan's weakness buried beneath rubble.  
-------------------------------
Thousands of years later, a shivan commander left as a guardian over the back end of the ancient's systems (also known as GTVA space), has his souts report that two new space-faring races are emerging.  He takes matters into his own hands, and prepares his fleet, driving his Lucifer into the GTVA systems, wrecking anything that comes against him, until Vasudan scientists uncover the ruined base on Altair.  There, the GTVA find the key to stopping his Lucifer, and ambush it in the Sol node.  The rest of his force is hunted down and destroyed.

32 years later, Bosch deploys Roemig and the Trinity to open the Ancient's closed node.  The Shivans, wondering what they garrison commander was doing coming home, send over some fighters and a transport to talk to him, only to find a Fenris.  They fight, but not expecting hostiles, the Shivans are beaten back.  The ambassador goes to Shivan command, and notifies them that a new race has arrived in the Ancient's home system.

What follows is the Second Shivan war, in which the Shivans decide that to destroy this troublesome sector of space they need to go from star to star, annihilating it.  However, the Bastion and Neried smash the nodes, sealing off the main route from the Shivan systems and the GTVA ones.  Or so it is thought.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Couple of things;

1/ Knossos gates, as far as we know, only stabilise nodes
2/ The nebula, if that's what you're implying, can't be the ancients home system... otherwise, how could they build a knossos on the outside of the system? (or inside it).  It's an interesting possibility that someone else sealed off that nebula by nuking the nodes, and the Ancients reopened it.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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The Colossus took 20 years to build IIRC
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Offline Eishtmo

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
What I myself wonder is - did the V dev's actually fully developed the shivan idea, or are they just as in the dark as we are? I mean, as far as we know, they themselves didn't know what to put in for the Shivans, so the left them mysterious.


In a weird way, I hope they did.  That's makes the Shivans the most interesting "mysterious" race ever to exist.  NO ONE, not even the creators, know what the Shivan's want or why.  Makes them even scarier too.
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Okay, its time to remember that the Ancient records mention the Lucy specifically and thats all.  No reason to believe the Sathanas were ever sighted.

How canon is the nature of Lucys beams?  Because they come from different places depending on who you ask, the game has them as ****ty little pissant Sreds, etc etc.

Also, it seems pretty obvious that (if we take the monologues as the word of [V]) that the Shivans used the Capella star to do something they like doing (like, go home).  Whatever they did destroyed or disabled several of the ships they used, and the considered that a greater objective than killing the Capellans.  They also ignored the Gamma Draconis star, even tho they explode stars near the gates other times (like in the Lupus nebula).  The common rationalisation, that they did it to kill Capellans, is inadequate; they could have sent a single Sath to each planet and killed everyone much faster and with less casualties.  Blockaded the nodes even, or made any attempt to push deeper into GTVA space, none of which they did.  The FS2 war was totally different in nature to the FS1 war, since the FS1 war was a simple extermination job but in FS2 the Shivans appeared to have other more complex goals.

I figured that the Lucy fleet was sent back, 8,000 years later, because Lucy killed the Ancients, then the Shivans noticed someone else using their nodes, and sent her back to finish the job.  AFAIK there was no prelimiary scouting, no reconnaisance; they just dumped the Lucy in there and started killing everyone.  They also had no idea where the strategic planets were; it seems obvious that they weren't really concerned and just considered it finishing an incomplete job.

I don't understand the Ancients=no beams comments.  Who says beams can penetrate Lucys shield?  There is no reason to assume that the Ancients had no beam weapon technology.  Of course, I doubt they were that advanced militarily, since they were far larger than GTVA and were defeated by the Lucy fleet singlehandedly.

Any technological differences between FS1 shivans and FS2 shivans can be put down to alien psychology; they sent back the original fleet, likely the same ships, perhaps even the same individual shivans.  Lucy had beams, but no other ships did; its hardly impossible that different versions of Demons, Cains etc exist.  Particularly that the shivan vessels *were* suffiencent to destroy the GTVA at that time, so its hardly likely the shivans said 'cripes, we totally need more beams like now cuz' after steamrolling the GTVA and getting pipped at the post by some lucky Terrans tipped off by a long dead empire.  I mean, who'd see that coming? :)

I think the rallying of the Saths in... that SOC mission... tells us something of the Shivan empire; they gathered Saths, and only Saths, sending them into GTVA space piecemeal, until they had enough to do whatever it was they did.  Saths are obviously not usually kept in large fleets, since they were not coming through in big clumps; its possible they are solitary ships themselves, like Lucy.  On that note, the lack of any Lucifer-class ships is probably because it couldn't contribute to the wierd shivan ritual they had planned, since it's essentially a planetkiller.

If the shivans kill everyone, and don't like planets, what does their fleet do?  They must maintain their fleet of killing machines on the off chance of detecting another race to crush... unless the Sath isn't primarily a warship.

And whoever said that Colin was a match for Sath is an idiot.  From the front, Sath can kill Colin in seconds.  From any other side, Colin can't do enough damage to prevent Sath from escaping.  Colin, indeed, was the worst designed, poorest mass/combat strength, biggest waste of resources ever.  But then she was just a symbol of GTVA paranoia and fear anyway, so y'know.

Well, I'm ranting.  Enough!

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Pnakotus
Okay, its time to remember that the Ancient records mention the Lucy specifically and thats all.  No reason to believe the Sathanas were ever sighted.


Just to be pedantic the Ancients don't mention the Lucifer. They mention that in subspace the Shivan's shields don't work. That could have refered to the fighter and bomber shields or it could refer to a pre-lucifer shielded capship. (8000 years is a long time to make improvements).

Personally I agree with you that they were talking about the Lucifer but you can't take that for granted.
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Offline aldo_14

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The GTVA analyses of Altair, IIRc, indicate surface damage consistent with the Lucifers weapons.  However, this doesn't mean it was the Lucifer itself - only a ship with similar weapons characteristics.