Author Topic: To American Troops  (Read 6203 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor

At this point, he must be.

aldo: Boxer enabled Napolean to rule. He is a loveble character becuase any suffering he inflicts is upon himself, for the benefit of others. So while he may be naive, he only harms himself. The naivete of US troops obviously does not only harm themselves.

The government must be subordinate to the people, never the other way around.

to answer your question, a junta would be avoided because of the simple fact that, left to themselves, people, inclduing soldiers, at least in modern America, would not wilingly attack a foreign nation. They CAN be stirred to action when the need comes, but simply be refusing to act when they feel unwarranted, soldiers could avoid aggression by their inaction.

To put it another way, soldiers would choose when *not* to attack, rather then when to attack. If the need comes, we both know that they can be made to attack without much difficulty.

Now let me ask you a question. If we use this model for the military, giving up freedom for the sake of efficiency, then why not in normal life. Why not allow the government to rule us all, so that we can achieve greater agricultural output, or less crime or whatever. Why leave decisions in the hands of ignorant, falliable individuals, when the masters know so much better?

The truth is, when the survival of a peoples is threatened, then temporary dictaorship for the sake of efficiency and survival may be justified, such as was thw case during WW1 and WW2. But Lets be honest, is the territorial integrity, much less the survival, of America, or any nation (other than a select few) currently threatened? The emphasis is on *temporary* dehumanization and what amounts to enslavement, not that that should become the status quo.


Because the military is a special case.  It's not for the sake of efficiency, it's for the sake of being a useable entity.  

If the military can veto every order it is given, how can any government be in control of a country?  What if the military decides there is a threat and wants to be proactive? - that's a junta right there.  Or should each indiviual in the military be able to decide if they want to fight whenever a battle looms?  Pick the easiest missions they can, regardless of the big picture?

Every time a nation-wide decision is made, we cannot hold a referendum.  That is the point of democracy, to allow representation.  The government is subordinate to the people, and - through the government - so is the military.

So what are you advocating, anyway?  A military that is completely free to pick and choose its battles?

NB: The only reasons 'soldiers can be made to attack without much difficulty' is because that is what the military is designed & trained to do.

 

Offline Bobboau

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he is advocateing total disamament by every nation in the world.
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Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline vyper

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No soldier in an army is expected to carry out an order he considers to be amoral.

[q]we think it is,
actualy we think the survival of us and much of the rest of europe, and north america is in question.
so, were a bit peranoied, how do you think we got were we are(most powerfull nation on the planet by an order of magnatude)?[/q]

No Bob, the American people think everyone's survival is in question without expansive military actions because the media has taught them so.

Also, you became the most powerful nation on earth through state sponsored terrorism from the middle east to indo china.

Btw, I wouldn't hold the US up as a shining example of how to rule the world - your financial issues are a little more than worrying.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
he is advocateing total disamament by every nation in the world.


That is a laudable aim...

but from what I could tell he was basically saying the US army should have refused to Iraq when ordered to. i.e. mutinied.

 

Offline Bobboau

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why we think the way we do is irrelevent to the fact that we do
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline vyper

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[q]why we think the way we do is irrelevent to the fact that we do[/q]

Are you stoned?
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Bobboau

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ok, let's put it this way, the only reason you don't think the world is doomed is becase your media tells you it isn't.
how does that reasoning sound to you?
absurd yes?
well how do you think your reasoning sounds to us?
simply saying 'you are brainwashed and therefore your oppinion is invalid' is not going to do anything but harden any maind controle that there may be.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline vyper

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I wasn't saying you were brain washed I was suggesting, albeit indirectly, that you should question these things rather than just accept them.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 
Violence is the solution to all problems. FIGHT!


Unless it causes me pain...then violence is wrong.

 

Offline Rictor

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arghh, no, look you guys misunderstand me.

First of all, yes, I am advocating complete disarmament, but thats NOT what I was reffering to . I advocate that seperately of what I am saying now, and as a far more distant goal. So, that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Alright, secondly, what I am saying is not that soldiers should be allowed to choose which order to obey, accept those they consider immoral which they are already free to disregard, but which wars to fight.

Orders. Wars. A war is just a large set of individual orders. If a soldier considers a war unjust, then every order given during the course of that war is also unjust. Once a group of people say "OK, we are going to attack Iraq", then that group of people follows the chain of comand in order to accomplish what they set out to do. However, if they never agreed with what it is that they set out to do, than they do not want to accomplish that and therefore do not need to follow orders.

The idea that someone can sign over any decision-making rights over to another entity, particularly when it deals with life and death, which is what soldiers do, is absurd. There are fundamental human rights and responsibilities that can never be signed away or abdicated, and the decision to take a life or participate i destruction is one of them. No job can require of you to kill without your consent, that is simply outside the bounds of what rights can be taken from you. Once you cross that line, its temporary slavery.

You can hold any job in the world: accountant, soldier, swimming instructor, whatever, but at no point, regardless of your job, can you boss require you to enagage in sexual relations with them. Thats simply outside their control. Same thing with taking life or participating in the taking of life. No employer has the power to make you act against your conscience, and because that is in your control, not theirs, it is your responsibility.

_____________

Bob: bull****, the US is damn well not under any threat to its survival and you know it. You consider 9/11 to be "big stuff" becuase you have to reference point. There are 300 million Americans, 300 of which died in that attack. Yes, a tragedy, but the loss of 0.00001 percent of the population is not a threat to survival by any stretch of the imagination.

There is no country on Earth that could succesfully invade America, and no one will try. Someone may kill a few citizens here or there, but thats not a real threat. And in any case, with all the spy goons running around all over the place, how likely do you think another 9/11 is?

The right to sovereignty means that you can put as much police and military around your borders to stop any terrorists or invaders from entering, but you may not go and attack another country in order to kill them. You can guard your house, but not attack someone's elses.

The truth is, there are no more real threats to the US or the West. The strongest rival, China, is not nearly strong enough to rival US hegemony.v There are no more Hitlers or Stalins, America is the only one left. Therefore, dictaorial powers for the sake of survival are not justified, not by a LONG way.

 

Offline vyper

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But I'm not a slave to a god
That doesn't exist
But I'm not a slave to a world
That doesn't give a ****


The death of one is a tragedy
The death of one is a tragedy
The death of one is a tragedy
But the death of millions is just a statistic

Fight, Fight, Fight.....
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline 01010

  • 26
Pfft. Manson hasn't made anything worth listening to since Antichrist Superstar.
What frequency are you getting? Is it noise or sweet sweet music? - Refused - Liberation Frequency.

 

Offline vyper

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You lie sir!
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline 01010

  • 26
Ok, a few good tracks on Holy Wood but they were just aping AS's best moves.

Best Manson track for me is "The Reflecting God" closely followed by "Mister superstar". The reflecting god is so damn brutal, really gets me going everytime.
What frequency are you getting? Is it noise or sweet sweet music? - Refused - Liberation Frequency.

 

Offline Tiara

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Respect for the military -> political debate -> military debate -> Manson

Hmmm... yes, i can see the link. :p
I AM GOD! AND I SHALL SMITE THEE!



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Offline Ford Prefect

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"Support the troops" seems meaningless to me. Of course I don't want anyone to die. With that said, I still make no pretense about my utter contempt for the military as an organization.

Meaningless war is one of the ways in which generations define their purpose. The same rolls are always played out; the power elite, the ones who subscribe to their doctrines, the reactionaries who automatically subscribe to the opposite, I could go on. We are creatures of intellect, but the bonds of instinct are too strong. People in groups have always been the same. The truth is fluid; whatever it is today hardly matters, because someone is going to be its victim. It's just too hard for our empathy to reach us when the violence is comfortably remote.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 
Quote
Originally posted by MeowMix2
Even though I'm an American I must point out there was no visible threat from Iraq and the attack was mostly offensive.


that was an ingnorent thing to say. You should be offended by the actions the current administration has played out and taken soldiers from there families to obtain there political goals that are offensive. the troops ubnfortuantly have to follow this crap wether they want to or not. those who dont end up in military prision, discharged or end up loosin all there benefits. most troops loose there sanity because of truama this significant. much like vietnam veterans.

i praise them for doing a job i cant do, wether it is right or not is not what this thread is about, its about there purpose. a majority of the troops dont believe in bushes crap, but they sworn to follow the orders of that command in chief.

and yes i stand firm when i say i support those soldiers, wether i agree with bushs politics or not. (which i dont!). we just all hope and pray that the sooner the job is done, the sooner theyre will be withdrawn and focus on real problems.

thanks for turning this thread into crap.

 

Offline vyper

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You guys REALLY gotta grow up.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 
tell me about it....

 

Offline vyper

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I was including you, for the record.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14