Author Topic: Overkill much ?  (Read 3592 times)

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Offline vyper

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I can't find any online links, but the **** is going to hit the fan when people start seeing the latest videos from Fallujah... mainly the one with the US Marine killing the unarmed, injured rebel lying on the floor bleeding out.
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Offline Eishtmo

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No such thing as overkill.  Just "open fire" and "I need to reload."

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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by vyper
I can't find any online links, but the **** is going to hit the fan when people start seeing the latest videos from Fallujah... mainly the one with the US Marine killing the unarmed, injured rebel lying on the floor bleeding out.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/default.stm
See BBC News & Video on the bottom right  (there'll probably be the uncesnored version floating around soon if not already)

Of course, the main issue of that one IMO is why a previous goup of marines left badly wounded hostiles in an abandoned building overnight.  Because it's always likely you'll get at least one lone nutter in the military (!), but leaving prisoners to (effectively) die sounds like a military policy-stroke-decision going beyond the actions of one individual.

 

Offline vyper

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Be funny to see how they justify this...
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Be funny to see how they justify this...


Presumably the dumping of injured wil be classed as either a necessity (under fire? - but I thought Falluja was under control and 'liberated'...), or a logistical error.

And the execution will either be judged as the soldier going a bit nuts (having been recently injured), or that the executed bloke was moving in such a way as to indicate a bomb was strapped round him.

something nice & tenuous will be found, no doubt.

NB: in cases anyones wondering, this isn't the footage of a marine peering over a wall, and then apparently shooting a man identified as wounded earlier

 this is a group of marines going into an abandoned building to pick up a group of injured insurgents dumped the previous day by another unit.  One marine identifies one man (one of the survivors, along with another bloke in better shape - the others obviously died in the night) as still breathing.  He then shoots the guy - who looks quite elderly IIRC - point blank as the camera is still focused on said injured guy (the bbc footage is understandably blanked out at this point).  There are no weapons visible in the building beyond the marines (according to the embedded reporter who took the footage... NBC, I think), and they have checked / are checking for booby traps.  IIRC there is no discernable movement beyond breathing from the executed bloke prior to his death, only shallow breathing and maybe a very slight head movement as he wakes up.

 

Offline Clave

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Offline Sandwich

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Welcome to the age of televised war, right in your living room. Average people do not understand the intricacies of the battlefield - heck, most grunt-level soldiers don't either.

War has always been this "cruel" and "inhumane". Boo-frickety-hoo. Lazy ass public only complains when the images are shown during their microwave dinner over the dining room 23" plasma HDTV. "Eww, that was disgusting! Did you see that, honey? Oh, pass the rice, please." But the hundreds and thousands of written sources on the brutalities of war never got much notice, did they?

Lazy (m)asses. Go fight with your eternally-midnight-blinking VCRs and let the military fight their own fight. :disgusted:
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline aldo_14

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So...people are becoming increasingly and visually aware of exactly how **** a solution to problems war is, and you'd rather they went "fair enough, lets send in more youngsters to fight"?

 

Offline Flipside

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On one occasion, the snipers tensed when they heard movement in the direction of a smoldering building. A cat sauntered out, unconcerned with anything but making its rounds in the neighborhood.
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"Can I shoot it, sir?" a sniper asked an officer.
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"Absolutely not!" came the reply
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hahahaha!!

 

Offline Bobboau

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I want to see the full video, aparently the guy was playing dead, he was told not to move and then he moved and was shot, put yourself in the mareen's shoes and watch the video one time, try to think is that whould you have done in that situation?
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
I want to see the full video, aparently the guy was playing dead, he was told not to move and then he moved and was shot, put yourself in the mareen's shoes and watch the video one time, try to think is that whould you have done in that situation?


IIRc he wasn't told not to move.  The marine saw him move, shouted 'he's ****ing faking he's dead' and shot him.  

The cameraman also said it appeared as if the marines had shot the other 4 injured when they entered the building - I'm not sure how correct / how much evidence there is for this particular claim, because I don't have the link handy (either in the bbc or Herald story, I think).

 

Offline Flipside

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At one point, they thought that they had a bead on someone running back and forth between the two buildings. Then Captain Christopher Spears exclaimed: "He's on a bike!"
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And somehow, through a volley of gunfire, whoever it was got away.
.

You know, if it wasn't so tragic, this'd almost read like a Mel Brooks movie :(

 

Offline Gank

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Eh, theres this thing called the Geneva convention Sandwich, I'm sure you learned about it having been in the military and your country having signed it, right? I'd have thought somebody who regularly points out how humane his own army is would have been the first to speak out against the execution of wounded prisioners of war, but then again the IDF  have been accused of doing the same sort of thing regularly.

Anyways more good reading on the sort of fighting that went on:
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,11394781%5E663,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/international/middleeast/21battle.html?pagewanted=1&ei=1&en=f042c7a6fefd8917&ex=1102001547

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
So...people are becoming increasingly and visually aware of exactly how **** a solution to problems war is, and you'd rather they went "fair enough, lets send in more youngsters to fight"?


No, I'm not saying anything for or against war at all. What I am saying is that all these people who all of a sudden are shocked by the brutal reality of war are ignoramuses. Whether that war is "good" or "bad" - justified or not, if you'd rather put it in those terms - is not the point I was making.

Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Eh, theres this thing called the Geneva convention Sandwich, I'm sure you learned about it having been in the military and your country having signed it, right? I'd have thought somebody who regularly points out how humane his own army is would have been the first to speak out against the execution of wounded prisioners of war, but then again the IDF  have been accused of doing the same sort of thing regularly.


Mmm. Tell me, what army in the world doesn't use standard 5.56mm ammo? Far as I know, that was banned in the Geneva Convention for being to brutal. Of course, this was something I (thought I) learned in my early army days, when my Hebrew wasn't all that good. It was either the ammo size or the rifled barrels of the M16s, I'm pretty sure. If someone could hunt up an English version of the Geneva Convention agreements (i.e. not legalese please), I'd like to look at it.

And as for shooting those guys, yeah, I'm just as against it as the next guy. BUT, I also realize that pictures - especially pictures by reporters - never tell the whole story, and often only show the portion of the story the way the reporter/editor wants it to be told. What, you think that the editor guy in Spiderman 2 was just some Hollywood character, with no basis in reality?
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Flipside

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Ewwwwwwwwwwwww...sticky one...

The thing is that, you are a soldier, working in one of the worst environemts to be Infantry in, i.e. a sniper ridden city, especially when the enemy know the geography of the city better than you do. You've spent you're entire day either hiding behind rocks or firing at something you cannot actually see. That sort of day makes a man jumpy....

I'm not justitifying what happened in any way, partly because, in all honesty, I don't know what happened, but I suspect it is the same mistake being repeated over and over, the insurgents don't actually kill many GI's but they do make them nervous and trigger happy enough to ruin relationships with the Iraqis.

 

Offline Flipside

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Double post.....
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 03:44:34 am by 394 »

 

Offline Flipside

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MegaPost........
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 03:44:59 am by 394 »

 

Offline Flipside

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Posting Spree......
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 03:45:22 am by 394 »

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Offline Flipside

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Holy ****! Where'd those come from!?!?!?!

Must have had a fit on the submit key or something..... :nervous:

edit : I like that......MMMMMMMMMULTIPOST!!! ..... :lol:

Posts edited to provide lighter reading ;)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 03:46:14 am by 394 »