[Bobboau]

Lib, how many civvies were killed in Fallujah?

[Rictor]

Remember, they took the hospital first hence, no one knows.
But everyone who is killed by the US becomes a terrorist, no civilians are ever harmed. If they're dead, clearly that means they should be dead.

redmenace: protests almost by definition involve disorderly conduct. If its easy to ignore, its not effective. Did you honestly fear for the saftey of the guys in the armoured APC??  Also, you can't say that "LA has a riotous past" because none of the same people were involved. They might as well have been from Texas, because people don't all act the same way just because they live in the same city and you know that as well as I do.

[Ford Prefect]

Unless it's EMERALD CITY!

Ha ha ha! Ho ho ho!
and a couple of hee hee haws!
That's how we laugh the day away
in the merry old land of Oz!

[Knight Templar]

So, Tin and Lib wouldn't mind it if they were out advocating the nuking of Iraq, in force with a group of people, and two tanks rolled by and told them to **** off and go home. Say, in the middle of Houston.

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by Liberator
The only problem there has been in Fallujah is that they got halted by the damned politicians the first time.  There are few problems in Fallujah now, it's not a mess.

Yes, too many blunders have been made by politicans who took over the jobs and made decisions that actual soldiers should have been making.  Unfortunately, I would bet there have been incidents like that throughout history.

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by Rictor
tank=anything big, metal and intimidating with a turret and/or machine-guns.

 

Actually there are some big differences between main battle tanks, armored personnel carriers, and the like.  Their names alone should convey some sense of difference in their assigned roles, firepower, chassis, and weight alone.

I am not certain if the Bradley is technically designated a Tank though...anyone know?  The ones used to fight at Waco, Texas were called "Bradley Fighting Vehicles."

[Knight Templar]

They call them fighting vehicles, but I'd call them light tanks, personally.

[SadisticSid]

Originally posted by Liberator
Wretched mess in Fallujah?  

Virtually the whole city has been taken with 25 confirmed fatal casualties for the Coalition Forces and over 1200 confirmed dead terrorists in a period of less that 72 hours.  

They found where they were doing those awful beheadings.  They found a "torture house" by following tips from confirmed civvies in the combat zone and then they located it by following the screams once they got close.  The only problem there has been in Fallujah is that they got halted by the damned politicians the first time.  There are few problems in Fallujah now, it's not a mess.

If the US had occupied the country properly in the first place without their aggressive, iron-fisted protocols there wouldn't have been any need to slaughter their way through the city. Remember the scenes in Iraq when they toppled the statue of Saddam a year ago and contrast it to what we have now, virtually everywhere the soldiers are still present and you see the effect that this occupation has had. Of course the war was based on a false premise anyway so this sucks any way you put it.

[Rictor]

uh, the toppling of Saddam's statue was staged you know. There was like 300 people there, brought along by the US forces, and the rest of the square was empty. There are some wider shots taken by another press agency, and they show a much better picture (as in more realistic).

But I agree with your other sentiments.

[Knight Templar]

Not that it really matters. They seemed to enjoy beating it with shoes anyway...

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Rictor
redmenace: protests almost by definition involve disorderly conduct. If its easy to ignore, its not effective. Did you honestly fear for the saftey of the guys in the armoured APC??  Also, you can't say that "LA has a riotous past" because none of the same people were involved. They might as well have been from Texas, because people don't all act the same way just because they live in the same city and you know that as well as I do. [/B]

I have been to many peaceful protests my self.

As for LA past. The area of LA has demonstrated in the past problems with riots. This could be related to several issues. The people that live there, the police, the civil government. Also the war is a dicisivly divisive issue just as "racism" in the 90s and the 60s were in the city. This could also be strictly related to the fact that LA is an urban area. However, I will say that protesters have been known to pick fights, IE. the IMF protests in DC, especially when protesters spat on military grunts on the streets(not doing anything to the protesters) and complained when they got floored. Or when they soked handkerchifs in urin to simulate tear gas symtoms.

However, civil disobedience is a tool. However, people should not complain when the civil gov't responds.

Also I read that they went around the block a couple of times. did they make that specific right turn a couple of times? or go around? Did the APC need to make that turn? They also edited out or had the camera off for a portion of it, SO WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?

Originally posted by Liberator
Wretched mess in Fallujah?  

Virtually the whole city has been taken with 25 confirmed fatal casualties for the Coalition Forces and over 1200 confirmed dead terrorists in a period of less that 72 hours.  

They found where they were doing those awful beheadings.  They found a "torture house" by following tips from confirmed civvies in the combat zone and then they located it by following the screams once they got close.  The only problem there has been in Fallujah is that they got halted by the damned politicians the first time.  There are few problems in Fallujah now, it's not a mess.

Don't forget that "freedom fighter" or insurgents or whatever name you want to use, are using mosk(I am sorry for the spelling) towers as sniper positions, using mosks, schools and hospitals(I think) as ammo dumps. As well as using mosks as fighting positions. They also have been using white flags to lure soldiers only to open fire on them.

[Rictor]

its normal to turn of the camera to put it down or something, and then turn it back on later.

I too have been to several peaceful protests, but sitting there like schoolboys isn't really in your face, which is one of the goals of a protest.

[MatthewPapa]

You have the right to protest-----ONLY IF IT DOESNT PUT SOMEONE ELSE IN DANGER
You can yell and holler all you want, just as long as it doesnt put people at risk. All I see are a bunch of angry hippies...

I dont think those civillians should be yelling at those poor servicemen. They were given orders to do whatever they are doing. Soldiers risk their lives for us, they shouldnt be YELLED at for doing so. Its kind of like those Veitnam veterans, so many people were unnappreciative of them.

[redmenace]

Don't take this the wrong way. BUT, don't be suprised when the civil gov't or those that the protesters annoy or get in their faces respond, sometimes with violence. Then react like the peasants from monty python and the holy grail saying "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

[Rictor]

Who were they putting in danger MatthewPapa? What, the people in the 25 ton armoured vehicle?

They didn't try to climb the tank, they did do anything except yell.
And I don't think soldiers deserve respect by definition. If they have done something brave or outstanding, sure, but that goes for all people. America hasn't waged a defensive war in centuries, I'm not going to respect someone for being an agressor.

[Ford Prefect]

"Wars not make one great." -Yoda

Gotta love Star Wars wisdom.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Rictor
And I don't think soldiers deserve respect by definition. If they have done something brave or outstanding, sure, but that goes for all people.

But in the modern all-voluntary military, the very fact the they have chosen of their own free will to place themselves in harm's way makes them deserving of respect.

America hasn't waged a defensive war in centuries, I'm not going to respect someone for being an agressor.

I don't get it Rictor, you all but ask for the USA to police the world and then berate us when we try and do it.  If we do nothing we get berated again.  How do we win exactly in your little game, Rictor?

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Liberator


But in the modern all-voluntary military, the very fact the they have chosen of their own free will to place themselves in harm's way makes them deserving of respect.

Yes, but putting yourself in harms way for a cause that is unjust is not admirable. I can choose to step in front of a car, but that doesn't make  me a hero. Actions that are undertaken in pursuit of a valid  and moral goal, yes, but not just any dangerous action.

Originally posted by Liberator
I don't get it Rictor, you all but ask for the USA to police the world and then berate us when we try and do it.  If we do nothing we get berated again.  How do we win exactly in your little Rictor?

Woah, hold on. I ask the US to poliice the world? Thats preciesly what I *don't* want them to do. I think you are under some misconceptions as to exactly what the world thinks of the US. I don't know very many people who want you to be the world's police force, since that power has been abused time and time again in the past.

[Cniinc]

Originally posted by Liberator

I don't get it Rictor, you all but ask for the USA to police the world and then berate us when we try and do it.  If we do nothing we get berated again.  How do we win exactly in your little Rictor?

EXACTLY. If you want isolationism, then don't complain and cry for Uncle Sam to do something when Israelis and Palestineans kill each other. Let the followers of the Milosevic school of thought force their citizens to relentless tortures all over the world. I'm sure you were one of the many that was angered by Hussein's gassing of his own people after Desert Storm. Did you think that we had no right to be there either? did Micheal Moore tell you that Desert Storm was only for oil as well?

[Rictor]

1. The gassing of the Kurds (who incidently were Saddam's enemies, not his own people) took place in 1988, 3 years before Desert Storm, and well before the US stopped supporting Saddam.

2. I don't complain to Uncle Sam when foreigners kill each other, only when the US is directly or indirectly the reason for those killings.

3. Please stop talking out of your ass, and try to come up with something better than "You filthy terrosist appeaser, go kiss Saddam's boots along with Michael Moore!!!!"