[Kazan]

this explains much (same discussion, on another board.. minus the dimwits)

Origionally by Vulva
What is this, nineteen fifty ****ing six?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm

In 1956, the nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, the 84th Congress passed a joint resolution to replace the existing motto with "In God we Trust." The president signed the resolution into law on 1956-JUL-30.  The change was partly motivated by a desire to differentiate between communism, which promotes Atheism, and Western capitalistic democracies, which were at least nominally Christian. The phrase "Atheistic Communists" has been repeated so many times that the public has linked Atheism with communism; the two are often considered synonymous. Many consider Atheism as unpatriotic and "un-American" as is communism. The new motto was first used on paper money in 1957, when it was added to the one-dollar silver certificate. By 1966, "In God we Trust" was added to all paper money, from $1 to $100 denominations.

Let's all hop in the Packard, hit the car-hop, and then catch a Betty Grable talkie at the drive-in!

yeah.. "atheism=communism" RIGHT.. my arse [basically what vulva was saying]

[Mongoose]

Here's a better idea Kazan...YOU get out of OUR country, because we represent the actual principles that this country was founded upon, not whatever twisted agenda you seem to be promoting.

P.S.  And WE need to grow up?!  We're not the ones calling people CHRISTOFASCISTS in every single post we make.

[Kazan]

Mongoose:

Oh yes - trying to write religion into the government - something which the founding fathers made sure didn't happen is "representing the actual principles this country was founded on"

Oh yes - telling certain members of society that they cannot enter into marriages with who they want: effectively making them second-class citizens is "representing the actual principles this country was founded on"

Oh yes - telling people "if you question the president you're unamerican" - something the founding fathers made sure you were allowed to do: and we're the first country to have the universal freedom of speech is "representing the actual principles this country was founded on"


Don't like being described as christofascist - then please by all means stop earning that description!  

I would love for that description to no longer be valid, and I would stop using it if that happened.

[Flipside]

You see! This is the sort of debate that should be going on in the Senate between Republic and Democratics. People who are actually passionate about what they believe.
It's not either of your belefs, as such, that are at fault, it is the people you trust to convert them into policy.

If there were a system of government that contained people as passionate as you two, and a way of finding common ground between them, I think we'd have it nailed

[StratComm]

Except, flipside, that those two criteria seem to be mutually exclusive

[Kazan]

yeah often

i'll hold my righteous rage in bottle for a while and be polite to mongoose and liberator

[vyper]

Sell it on e-bay.

And then stand for election.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Kazan
...polite to mongoose and liberator

[ionia23]

I hope you all realize this is just another example of some of the silly crap Congress has to deal with.  All kinds of strange bills get thrown to them, only to be thrown back out.  I seem to recall a few years ago some senator suggesting a bill to ban marriage entirely since the current  rules are discriminatory (in his opinion).

t'aint that big of a deal.

[Kazan]

libby responds to my post in which i promise to be polite to him for a while - but ignores my refutation of his position

[Ace]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Here's a better idea Kazan...YOU get out of OUR country, because we represent the actual principles that this country was founded upon, not whatever twisted agenda you seem to be promoting.

P.S.  And WE need to grow up?!  We're not the ones calling people CHRISTOFASCISTS in every single post we make.

Give me a starship and I'll gladly leave.

Along with a whole lot of "darn dung damned intellectshauls."

[Kazan]

yeah.. we leftists and our "twisted agenda" of promoting that the government stay out of the bedroom, not tell people which religion to be, promoting free speech, yada yada -- all that jaz

[ionia23]

Basically, promoting an agenda where anything that runs counter to your own is touted to be pure idiocy.

Kinda like what they say about you.

You're both ****ed.

[Kazan]

*rolls eyes at ionia*

[ionia23]

yeah.  You may be touting such open-minded ideals as 'government staying out of the bedroom' and 'free speech', but heaven forbid someone wears a crucifix in your presence.  End of the freakin' world.

We're not all gay-bashing racist Klansmen, you know.  Not all of us.

[karajorma]

I couldn't give a toss if someone wears a crucifix around me so I have to ask what the hell you're on about Ionia?

[NGTM-1R]

Ionia's right, unfortunately.

You, Kaz, amuse the hell out of me with your constant claims of theocracy and facism. Are you on crack? Without severe restructuring of the government, this is an impossiblity. That's why the government was set up the way it was.

More to the point, you remind me very, very much of those Kerry supporters who tried to convince us the draft was coming back if Bush got relected. That was absolute bull**** and everyone with enough neurons to form a synapse knew it. So is this. I am a Roman Catholic. I am a Republican. I don't want this. Neither does a majority of Congress, or a majority of the United States. Go find a real issue.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Kazan


i'm not going to calm down until the battle to save the US is over

I'm sorry Kaz, but the even if your views / statements are the most concise, convincing and accurate in the world, you're still going to damage peoples view of their credibility by shouting and bawling (internet stylee) at them.

Like I said, I agree with you on this - I don't believe government can be fair without being secular.  All I'm saying is, calm down a wee bit and people will be more inclined to listen to you in the long run.  

[ionia23]

I swear to Arlah this wasn't yet-another-attempt to razz Kaz.  Fanaticism on both sides of the coin freaks and bugs the hell out of me.  It doesn't take long before I become one of 'them' too.  What I'm 'on' about is this continued bashing of all things buying into the concept of (insert deity here).  Having faith doesn't make one stupid.  I don't fall back on the God thing because I'm too 'weak' to think for myself.

"And yet, it still moves"

Like i said a few posts back.  The bill that got this whole stupid thread started was another example of the stupid crap Congress is forced to deal with because "someone" decides to make an issue out of it.  There are too many people on both sides who consider such a bill at best laughable and at worst dangerous.  

If there's one thing that Republicans and Democrats can agree on it's that government has no business legislating spiritual morality.

Take my Grandfather.  Decorated war hero, former president of a large bank chain out here, ran for the Senate, devout Republican, blah blah.  Surprisingly, he didn't vote for George Bush.  When asked why, he replied that "He crosses the line between Church and State too much.  When you do that, you are one step closer to becoming Iran".

Like any group, the more you try to silence them the louder they get.

[Ford Prefect]

You'll never get anywhere in terms of legitimacy by claiming that your principles are the ones upon which the nation was really founded. What a country was founded on doesn't mean ****, because historical documents are forever at the mercy of those who are adept at fitting round pegs into square holes. It may take decades or centuries, but a society will always become whatever the strongest cause wants it to be.

Kazan, quite frankly, I think it's very often people with your steady anger that alter the direction of society, but the groove of dogmatism is a very easy one to get stuck in, and anything can become a dogma in and of itself.

Liberator, I am posing a question that is sincerely not meant to be antagonistic: Why do you feel that religion and morality must be connected? Morality is something that organizes society; it keeps peope from being perpetually at each other's throats, but religion isn't about society, is it? Quite honestly, I am an atheist not because it is what makes me happy but because it is what my reasoning leads me to, so I am familiar with the emotion of spiritual ecstasy, and I know that is a very personal matter. Isn't religion more essentially about the desire to feel a connection with the "ebb and flow" of all things than it is about what other people do? Shouldn't moral questions be left to a context in which we can all communicate?