[Kazan]

mongoose: that arguement is pointless and silly

we have better things to measure such off of -- like the simple fact that until something is a seperate entity it cannot be considered such by a court, and the simple fact that courts don't deal in "what could be" and a million other compelling LEGAL reasons


I fully agree with the "if you get into a situation where you need an abortion you've been irresponsible" - but i also know a more about law and im more realistic so i know that

A) abortion must remain legal for legal reasons
B) abortion must remain legal for safety reasons
C) abortion would not be stopped by it becoming illegal


if you really want to reduce the abortion rate then listen to us - because while we support legalized abortion, we also support a sex education policy that is proven beyond a doubt to lower the number of teen pregnancies and other unwanted pregnancies and thereby LOWER the abortion rate

it is also conclusively proven that Bush's sex ed policy of "Abstinance Only" RAISES the teen pregnancy rate along with other unwanted pregnancies and Bush's policy thereby RAISES the abortion rate

[Mongoose]

How about this:  if teens would stop acting stupid and keep it in their pants, the abstinence program would work perfectly.  Don't blame the stupidity of the masses on a policy.  Personally, I don't see how you can blame a program telling teens not to have sex for increased sex rates; teens are mature enough to take responsibility for their own actions, and therefore it's their own fault.

[Kazan]

it hasn't increase sex rates - it's increase unsafe sex rates


sex education has ZERO effect on how much people ****, and it never will - but it has a significant effect on whether they do so SAFELY

anyone who thinks that ANYTHING can change how often teens screw is naive


----------------

PS: Getting 85% of americans to be rational is impossible - why do you think it should be any different for teenagers

----------------

PPS: I screw my fiance constantly for the last two years -- guess what NO PREGNANCY

condoms when she's off birth control
birth control the rest of the time

wow what a concept - but of course you HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT CONTRACEPTIVES TO USE THEM

[Krackers87]

SEX!!! WOOOOHHHHOO!!

[Mongoose]

Not to make an example of myself, but I, for one, know full well about contraceptives and choose not to have sex.  There are more teens out there who think likewise than you might think.  And don't tell me a 15-year-old isn't going to know what a condom is; now that's being naive.  If they're old enough to be having sex, they're old enough to know what contraception is.  Besides, such decisions should be kept in the hands of parents, not school administrators.

[Taristin]

Basically... (In response to Kracker's post)

[Kazan]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Not to make an example of myself, but I, for one, know full well about contraceptives and choose not to have sex.

and that's your choice - that's between you, and you

Originally posted by Mongoose
There are more teens out there who think likewise than you might think.

that's between them, and them

Originally posted by Mongoose
And don't tell me a 15-year-old isn't going to know what a condom is; now that's being naive.  

no - it's naive to think otherwise -- you have to find out about them SOMEHOW and you also have to know how to _properly_ put them on

do you know the proper technique for putting a condom on? no googling!

Originally posted by Mongoose
If they're old enough to be having sex, they're old enough to know what contraception is.

Good! then let's teach them about it instead of just saying "don't have sex" and telling them nothing else!

Originally posted by Mongoose
Besides, such decisions should be kept in the hands of parents, not school administrators.

parents have the option of opting their children, individually, out of sex ed -- but this has been proven to be an incredibly bad idea (except in the EXTREMELY rare circumstances that a parent who pulls their child out of sex ed actually teaches it themselves)

[Bobboau]

just to clarafy, you are not opposed to telling them not to have sex in *addition* to contraception (ect) education, just to the *exclusion* of it, corect?

[Kazan]

yeah - saying "the best way not to worry about std's pregnancy is to not have sex at all" is fine

but when they don't teach anything other than "don't have sex" it is a problem

[aldo_14]

Just look at the problems in Africa with AIDs for an example of how much of a problem 'abstinance only' eduction is.  You can't overrule thousands of years worth of behavioural instinct with a few hand-holding seminars, after all.

[NGTM-1R]

Unfortunately, that applies to contraceptives as well. So everything is screwed equally, really.


...and I swear I did not intend that pun.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Unfortunately, that applies to contraceptives as well. So everything is screwed equally, really.


...and I swear I did not intend that pun.

?

But the point is that, in Africa, the focus upon encouraging abstinance and not educating people on contraception has led to an AIDs/HIV epidemic.

[Mongoose]

aldo, at the very least, the abstinence focus may have done nothing to help the problem, but it didn't cause it in the first place.  The epidemic was there before efforts were taken to slow it.

[Ford Prefect]

You simply can't expect people not to have sex, especially kids. It's just... what people do. If you live in an imaginary, naive world where people only have sex when it's prudent, then you can expect disease epidemics and unwanted pregnancies. If however, you accept the way people are, then you can help deal with the problem by educating people about how to have sex without ****ing themselves over. (Pun intended.)

[Mongoose]

I just don't feel that way; I don't see sex as something that people "just do."  I know it's most likely naive, but I'd like to see humanity start holding itself to a higher standard than two dogs in the street.

[Kazan]

*rolleyes* it's already a higher standard than "two dogs in the street"

it's your problem with being "merely human" that is the real problem

[Ford Prefect]

Kazan, do NOT make me turn this car around!

[.::Tin Can::.]

Originally posted by Kazan
it hasn't increase sex rates - it's increase unsafe sex rates


sex education has ZERO effect on how much people ****, and it never will - but it has a significant effect on whether they do so SAFELY

anyone who thinks that ANYTHING can change how often teens screw is naive


----------------

PS: Getting 85% of americans to be rational is impossible - why do you think it should be any different for teenagers

----------------

PPS: I screw my fiance constantly for the last two years -- guess what NO PREGNANCY

condoms when she's off birth control
birth control the rest of the time

wow what a concept - but of course you HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT CONTRACEPTIVES TO USE THEM

I think those STD videos made a difference... *shudders at the thought of it*

[Kazan]

yeah they convince you to make sure your partner is clean and that you wear protection

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Mongoose
aldo, at the very least, the abstinence focus may have done nothing to help the problem, but it didn't cause it in the first place.  The epidemic was there before efforts were taken to slow it.

So you're suggesting staying the course with a 'solution' that isn't one?  Regardless of your view on the morality of pre-marital sex, surely you must agree it's better to save lives by teaching contraception rather than sit back and rely on a strategy that has been proven to do nothing to help?

I mean, I'm not saying they should stop encouraging abstinance.  But why the hell can't they also teach the purpose of contraceptive devices in stopping the transmission of a deadly disease?  The church has it's objections to that - fine.  But the people who are dying because of this don't listen to the church anyways, so why should we abandon them by not providing an alternative?