Author Topic: Kazan will love this  (Read 2879 times)

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Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
I don't know if touching genitals will get you pregnant.  


touching as hand-on-genitals no way in hell unless you get semen on that hand then touch the female genitals

now to make it anything greater than an infintessimally small chance (so small that saying "Touching genitals will get you pregnant" is effectively a lie) that semen has to enter the vagina



and im not suprised one little bit - nothing these assholes do suprises me
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Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by Flaser
Instead making teens, motivated, brought up in a morally conscious manner - ergo teaching them how to go about forming relationships, and minimize the risk involved with sexual activity -, that would make them self-driven and responsible;


yes self-driven and responsible :D

some will choose to do so anyway (*raises hand*), but when informed they will be safe about it


-------------

that 'morally conscious manner' cannot be too repressive though, sexual repression in a society increases the ammount of mental problems in that society
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Offline Lynx

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[YODA]Meeting people of thr other gender leads to touching their genitals...touching their genitals leads to sex....and SEX leads to the dark side of the Force(SATAN)...[/YODA]
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Offline Kazan

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Offline Drew

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independant studies have shown that women who have abortions often suffer severe depression. The women has to cope with her misteak and the killing of the baby she was carrying.  

Depressed people are more prone to suicide. Women depressed because she killed her child. Its fair to say that abortion can increase your chances of suicide.

The genital touching thing is wierd. Sure the possibility is there but the chances are way to slim.

And HIV/AIDS can be carried by any body fluid. There was a government report released a few years ago that said any type of contact; kissing, oral sex w/e has the risk of transmission.

Sexual repression should not be used as an excuse for sexual rebellion. Promote "safe" teen sex and you promote the destruction of the family.  And God knows, secular humanist progressive liberals would love that.

 Abstinence until marriage is only way to prevent the transmission of HIV/AIDS.  Abstience programs in Uganda have succeded in dramatically lowering the infection rate in that country. If people just waited, there would be no massive AIDS problem.

Flasher is right, but abstience programs are hardly external control.
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Offline Kazan

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wow Drew - your entire post is one steaming pile of BULL****

here is a nice piece of bull****
Quote
cope with her misteak


it's spelled mistake for one :P - but you're pushing YOUR WORLDVIEW AND YOUR ASSHOLE BACKWARDS OPINION INTO HER ACTIONS

No studies support you


----------------
but here is the biggest single piece of bull****

Quote
Promote "safe" teen sex and you promote the destruction of the family. And God knows, secular humanist progressive liberals would love that.


DOUBLE BULL**** JACKASS

A) Promoting "safe" sex doesn't desotry the family - look at europe you ignorant SOB

B) DON'T TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO DO WHEN IT'S NOT WHAT I WANT TO DO YOU STUPID SOB

Quote
Abstinence until marriage is only way to prevent the transmission of HIV/AIDS


No it's not you ignorant piece of ****

Quote
Abstience programs in Uganda have succeded in dramatically lowering the infection rate in that country


*Cough* bull**** *cough*

comprehensive sex education programs did that - you're falsely attributing the effectiveness of those comprehensive sex ed programs to abstinance only because you forget STATISTIACL DELAY
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Drew
independant studies have shown that women who have abortions often suffer severe depression. The women has to cope with her misteak and the killing of the baby she was carrying.  

Depressed people are more prone to suicide. Women depressed because she killed her child. Its fair to say that abortion can increase your chances of suicide.

The genital touching thing is wierd. Sure the possibility is there but the chances are way to slim.

And HIV/AIDS can be carried by any body fluid. There was a government report released a few years ago that said any type of contact; kissing, oral sex w/e has the risk of transmission.

Sexual repression should not be used as an excuse for sexual rebellion. Promote "safe" teen sex and you promote the destruction of the family.  And God knows, secular humanist progressive liberals would love that.

 Abstinence until marriage is only way to prevent the transmission of HIV/AIDS.  Abstience programs in Uganda have succeded in dramatically lowering the infection rate in that country. If people just waited, there would be no massive AIDS problem.

Flasher is right, but abstience programs are hardly external control.


With reference to the 'mistake' of abortion, one of the medical reasons considered when allowing abortion is the possibility of post-natal depression, which can lead to suicide.

So it's unfair to cite this (depression) as an arguement against abortion, as it can be a medical reason necessitating abortion.

Insofar as I know and have ever seen, Aids / HIV can only be spread by kissing if both of the 2 people involved have a mouth ulcer; i.e. blood access (this is itself highly unlikely due to the anti-virus properies of saliva and the much lover concentrations of the HIV virus; no case contracted this way is known.  

It's spread within semen, blood, vaginal fluid and breast milk; I've never seen any evidence or new stories indicating it can be spread in the way you describe, and most articles unequivocally state it can't be transmitted in that way.

Finally, 'promoting safe teen sex' is not promoting safe sex.  It's simply a process of educating on the exact consequences of sex -at any age- and raising awareness of what protective measures can be taken.  It has nothing to do with family or whatnot; you could argue unprotected (i.e. when uneducated about contraception) sex is far more dangerous as it raises the likelihood of pregnancy (and thus potentially a single parent situation).

Oh, and RE: Uganda.  If you look at the linked chart on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2995109.stm, it says this; Uganda has fought Aids with an aggressive public information campaign after the epidemic slashed life expectancy from 48 years to 38 during the 1990s. Recent HIV infections appear to be on the decline in parts of the country and condom use by young single women has almost doubled in recent years.

You can also see doubts raised over the correctness of said aids rate in this story; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3677570.stm

and the use of condoms has also been heavily promoted alongside abstinance, to quote this article; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4061779.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3250021.stm

So the Ugandan improvement can be put down to a combination of both abstinance teaching and education on safe sex.

EDIt; oh, and both saliva and skin act as a natural barrier against infection by HIV / Aids - that's why the methods of infection involve either an open 'wound' (i.e. from a dirty needle), or sex.

EDIT2; Kaz, calm down a bit, eh?  Just focus on presenting the facts, :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 11:11:52 am by 181 »

 

Offline Drew

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Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
wow Drew - your entire post is one steaming pile of BULL****

here is a nice piece of bull****


it's spelled mistake for one :P - but you're pushing YOUR WORLDVIEW AND YOUR ASSHOLE BACKWARDS OPINION INTO HER ACTIONS

No studies support you


----------------
but here is the biggest single piece of bull****



DOUBLE BULL**** JACKASS

A) Promoting "safe" sex doesn't desotry the family - look at europe you ignorant SOB

B) DON'T TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO DO WHEN IT'S NOT WHAT I WANT TO DO YOU STUPID SOB



No it's not you ignorant piece of ****



*Cough* bull**** *cough*

comprehensive sex education programs did that - you're falsely attributing the effectiveness of those comprehensive sex ed programs to abstinance only because you forget STATISTIACL DELAY


and you forgot your evidence.

Hell. Aldo had to do most of the work. Anybody can lose their temper and screem bull****. Congratulations in your medioctrity Kaz.

"look at europe"
I lived in Germany for 5 years. In know all about Europe. Europe sucks.
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Offline Kazan

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the evidence was posted in other threads and i wasn't going to bother reposting - because i knew someon else would
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Offline Clave

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You based your opinion of the whole continent on your experience in Germany? :wtf:
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Offline Kazan

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and obviously a small part of germany, or a biased view thereof
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Offline Drew

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aldo's post is the only one with abstience in mind.
the rest were basically comments

so until you re-read the rulebook for arguments, me and aldo can have a inteligent conversation

US public school sex ed programs do _not_ promote abstience, like the Uganda program does. Pop culture also does not support the idea. To my knowledge, stations such as MTV have never promoted abstinence; rather they push condom use 24 hours a day.


This report is basically an attack on all abstience programs by using a few abstience programs that use some strange facts. These facts are given with a much more important message: Abstinence is the only way to totaly prevent transmission, and to totaly prevent pregnancy.  Many teens pledge abstinence just because it increases chances of a succesful, unproblematic future.
Condom use does not promote the suppression of libido, just "safer" methods of relieving it.  On the other hand, abstienece involves a serious amount of self control.

Abstinence programs do not use these facts as the conerstone of their message.
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Offline Mad Bomber

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What gets me about the abstinence-only programs is that they just say "Don't have sex til marriage, damnit!!"

They don't have an answer for "Well, what should I do if I and my significant other really, really want to?" A lot of them just promote abstinence and sort of give a cursory glance at the alternatives.

Then again, most of my sex-ed came through my (quite liberal) church. :p

My thinking is, if more people know the plain facts about what they're doing -- and trust me, they are doing it, abstinence-only education or not -- then stuff like teen pregnancy and the single-parent situations that often ensue will happen much less. (It'd also probably reduce the number of teen abortions.) :nod:

I'm not advocating promiscuity or anything, I'm just being a realist. People are going to have sex before marriage, no matter how hard the "abstinence-until-marriage" agenda is pushed. But if they know what to do to avoid pregnancy 'til they're ready, and if they know about STDs, it works out better for everyone. :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 12:04:17 pm by 51 »
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Offline Styxx

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Kazan, quit it. Argue, don't insult. This goes for everyone else.
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Offline vyper

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[q]I'm not advocating promiscuity or anything[/q]

Promiscuous teens are all over the news... how come I never met any when I was 16?
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Offline Kazan

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all abstinance-only programs are a complete and total failure - studies have conclusively shown that abstinant-only-education causes a RISE IN THE TEEN PREGNANCY AND STD INFECTION RATES
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Drew

US public school sex ed programs do _not_ promote abstience, like the Uganda program does. Pop culture also does not support the idea. To my knowledge, stations such as MTV have never promoted abstinence; rather they push condom use 24 hours a day.

This report is basically an attack on all abstience programs by using a few abstience programs that use some strange facts. These facts are given with a much more important message: Abstinence is the only way to totaly prevent transmission, and to totaly prevent pregnancy.  Many teens pledge abstinence just because it increases chances of a succesful, unproblematic future.
Condom use does not promote the suppression of libido, just "safer" methods of relieving it.  On the other hand, abstienece involves a serious amount of self control.

Abstinence programs do not use these facts as the conerstone of their message.


The primary basis of abstinance arguements is, IMO, based on religion (specifically the morality of pre-marital or non-reproductive sex); teaching based upon this could be very easily seen as bringing religion into the curriculum.  Also, the job of sex education is - or should be - to educate about the process of sexual reproduction and the personal effects.  

The decision of whether or not abstinance is 'good' should be one which is made by the individual themself; based on the unbiased evidence (i.e. from sex education) of the possible risks of unprotected sex*, including the effectiveness of contraception.  The fact that no sex = no STD infection (simpilification, obviously there can be other infection vectors) is fairly obvious.

With regards to abstinance, it is worth noting that the US does commit substantial funds to abstinance-promoting groups; $270m (according to article below, I think Congress may have reduced this to $196m but I can't find a specific link).   It is also worth noting this is also a religious issue based on personal views; setting a national policy to focus solely on that is clearly sectarianising the issue.

NB: with regards to a specific group; the Silver Ring Thing; a Columba university report found that
 Study of 12,000 aged 12 to 18
- Six years on, 99% of non-pledgers had sex before marriage
- So too did 88% of pledgers
- Pledgers first had sex an average of 18 months later
- Both had similar rates of STDs
- Pledgers 'much less likely' to use contraception
[/b]
(see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3846687.stm boxout)
(also worth noting the level of teenage pregnancies in the US is much higher than the UK and by consequence the rest of europe; there is no similar focus on abstinace in Europe that I know of)


I think this illustrates why sex education is necessary even if you aim to have a universal 'abstinance only' focus; abstinance groups have to focus on overcoming a basic human urge to reproduce, and as such may often resort to scaremongering about the alternatives.

I have no objection to the message of abstinance; if people wish to listen to it, then fair enough.  What I think is wrong is when education on safe sex, etc, is omitted or discredited to favour that view of abstinance.  I think that it's simply short-sighted to do so, especially when the arguement for the morality of abstinance is based on a religious or moral code which not everyone will choose to subscribe to.  In the worst case, we have the situation where the Vatican scaremongers (or outright blocks) over the use of condoms to prevent their use in anti-aids education in Africa.

I short, I think it is the duty of the government to provide full information on the biological risks and safeguards available for sex.  It is the duty of individuals to decide which safeguard is most appropriate for them, and which approach to sex to take; they should not be forced to listen to a single view such as that which preaches abstinance.

*note that this includes the issue of promiscuity.  From a biological perspective, and thus the educational perspective, whether or not sex is with a married or unmarried partner is of no real consequence with relation to the individual risk of STDs..... there's no real difference from a long term relationship vs a married relationship with regards to STD infection (etc).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 12:49:40 pm by 181 »

 

Offline Deepblue

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Maybe you should watch that "shift" key. BTW, prove it.

EDIT: @ Kazan.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
Maybe you should watch that "shift" key. BTW, prove it.

EDIT: @ Kazan.


See the poll details in my post; it's likely the marginal decrease in pre-marital sex is outweighed by the decreased use of contraception.

 

Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
BTW, prove it.


SRC: Fundamentals of Extremism - and they directly cite all the studies
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