[Singh]

I just listened to Bosch's 1st Monologue....

Now this is odd...at the end of hte monologue, he mentions the theory that the shivans are birthed from subspace, the result of an angry cosmos to destroy the human race. But if you listen carefully, to the sentences preceding and the tone he uses....it's as if Bosch doesn't believe this, and that he's actually sarcastic when referring to it.......

[Lightspeed]

Yes, the monologues give away a lot.

*enjoys a folder full of high-quality DivX cutscenes from both FS1 and FS2*

And yes Singh, Bosch mocks the ancients on several occasions. The ancients had a very "religious" approach when it came to trying to understand the Shivans. Bosch comes from a totally opposite, scientific  approach. (Also listen to the one where he's talking about the jump gates)

He does realize what he's doing, check the nebula monologue for reference. He is ready to pay any price to achieve his goals, no matter what it should be. This is the only and crucial point where he doubts whether he's doing the right thing.

Bosch has only one goal: The continued existance of mankind.

I alone realized our species had no future with the Vasudans. If we are to survive, our destiny must lie elsewhere.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma

. He must have discovered its existance from someone and the GTI had been conducting experiments on live shivans. Did they simply give out false information that led him to mistakenly believe there was a chance of peace?

That's the interesting thing.. the NTF rebellion was effectively a cover to recover ancient technology from sites in Vasudan space (to determine and open the knossos) ..... but how did Bosch know to even look?  And when did he actually get ETAK operational - before, during or after the rebellion?

[Lightspeed]

The NTF rebellion was much, much more than that. Without the NTF, Bosch would have never been able to follow his plan. Without an army of men willing to die for him (even though for entirely different reasons) he'd have been helpless.

Bosch knew what to look for because he alone knew what the GTI knew. All knowledge they had gathered was lost in the Hades rebellion and thoughout the years of the GTVA. The GTVA "forgot" a lot about the Shivans, probably repressing the idea (certain knowledge?) that they may come again.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
That's the interesting thing.. the NTF rebellion was effectively a cover to recover ancient technology from sites in Vasudan space (to determine and open the knossos) ..... but how did Bosch know to even look?  And when did he actually get ETAK operational - before, during or after the rebellion?

Yep. That was the thing I was wondering about. Was ETAK mearly Bosch's version of something the GTI had already for instance?

[Singh]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
And yes Singh, Bosch mocks the ancients on several occasions. The ancients had a very "religious" approach when it came to trying to understand the Shivans. Bosch comes from a totally opposite, scientific  approach. (Also listen to the one where he's talking about the jump gates)
[/I]

True.

But I just saw the FS1 ancient cutscenes....both are very, very contrasting and different in nature. In the ancients cutscene, the ancients sing the tune that they trangressed into subspace, and the Shivans were the direct result of this transgression. Yet, Bosch dismisses this, almost as if he knows the real truth of their nature. Perhaps he has seen something more than just the Ancient's legacy, something else entirely.

But whom is hte right one here? Is Bosch right, or the ancients? Which theory will hold true? or through some strange twist of fate, was FS3 meant to be the combination of both? Or is it merely the Denial of both assumptions?

The shivans opened up a subspace vortex of unimaginable proportions in the capella system, but the most important question is not why but where did they go, and what did they do there? From the movie, it appears that the shivans actually triggered the nova as well as a secondary explosion of sorts. the first was the nova we saw consuming everything, but what was the second? From what we could gleam, this had nothing to do with the Shivan's main motives or movements, or their earlier hatred against the Terrans, as they made no further attempts to move the Sathanas fleet towards the terrans.

This begs the question: did the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis suffer a similar fate thousands - if not millions of years before? If the shivans were there, beyond the Knossos, why didn't they invade the ancients with all the sathanii? The theory of different fleets for different purposes is the most likely answer here....yet it seems inadequate.....we need a [v] God damnit!!! WE NEED FS3!! ARAAARRRRRGHHHHH!!!!!


*runs around screaming as his mind is tortured by an eternity of questions...

Also, something strange occured during the endpart1 cutscene....

If you look on when the Rakshasha and the Deimos are fighting, in the background you can observe a Hapshetput class destroyer being blown to smithereens...but this isn't hte interesting bit. Instead observe the Moloch class corvette that's right nearby it, it appears to be firing a shivan beam at an enemy ship of unknown class and configuration, but the glows appears to be in the wrong place. It could just have been an explosion effect though.

But skip a bit forwards, to after the shivans jump out. Now see the same beam....it's originating from the unknown ship! and it is clearly shivan in nature! Meaning that either the ships in the background are SOC with refitted shivan beams, or shivans were firing on each other for some same reason........

[ShadowWolf_IH]

I have to disagree with the GTVA forgetting or repressing.  If it had been over the course of hundreds of years i would agree, but not 32.  Bosch knew exactly what to look for, i agree with that, he knew exactly what he was doing, the only thing he left to chance was how the shivans would react.  That was his only unknown.  Everything else was clearly calculated.

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Lightspeed

I alone realized our species had no future with the Vasudans. If we are to survive, our destiny must lie elsewhere.

So... what? The Vasudans are a curse on the Terran's existance? What is that supposed to mean? That Terrans and Vasudans aren't even supposed to intermingle? What?

[Singh]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
The NTF rebellion was much, much more than that. Without the NTF, Bosch would have never been able to follow his plan. Without an army of men willing to die for him (even though for entirely different reasons) he'd have been helpless.

Bosch knew what to look for because he alone knew what the GTI knew. All knowledge they had gathered was lost in the Hades rebellion and thoughout the years of the GTVA. The GTVA "forgot" a lot about the Shivans, probably repressing the idea (certain knowledge?) that they may come again.

Which is what I find hard to believe. GTVI would have a really hard time explaining how they lost such knowledge, and to me, it seems all to suspicious they pawned it off on the destruction of the hades.....they'd have a hell of a lot more use for it when nobody else knows they know about it.

Did Bosch really go to excavate things from deneb? or did he go to steal them? If the GTVI buried tihs knowledge, they'd definately want nobody to touch it...but Bosch knew, and he knew how to get it. It was probably the reason the GTVI didn't want him destroyed either, since he held the information they had, and they couldn't afford to loose it either.

The ETAK was definately something Bosch got from before, but continued to enhance throughout the journey, as seen by the Sunder and the Hinton. Of course, due to alpha 1 he failed in that objective, and had to settle for something crude and rudimentary. If it was otherwise, I doubt he'd have been able to do much else.........

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Raa

So... what? The Vasudans are a curse on the Terran's existance? What is that supposed to mean? That Terrans and Vasudans aren't even supposed to intermingle? What?

Or simply that the Shivans represent an opportunity that the Vasudans don't......an opportunity to grow perhaps?  Or simply a case of 'better to be the Devils right hand man than in his path'?

Of course, if Bosch fought the GTI he probably also fought the Vasudans - and saw their homeworld crumble.  He definately understands hatred of the Vasudans, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Singh


Which is what I find hard to believe. GTVI would have a really hard time explaining how they lost such knowledge, and to me, it seems all to suspicious they pawned it off on the destruction of the hades.....they'd have a hell of a lot more use for it when nobody else knows they know about it.

Did Bosch really go to excavate things from deneb? or did he go to steal them? If the GTVI buried tihs knowledge, they'd definately want nobody to touch it...but Bosch knew, and he knew how to get it. It was probably the reason the GTVI didn't want him destroyed either, since he held the information they had, and they couldn't afford to loose it either.

The ETAK was definately something Bosch got from before, but continued to enhance throughout the journey, as seen by the Sunder and the Hinton. Of course, due to alpha 1 he failed in that objective, and had to settle for something crude and rudimentary. If it was otherwise, I doubt he'd have been able to do much else.........

Or it could be that the GTVI was playing Bosch for their own purposes.... maybe they lost control, and that's why they panicked when he made contact with the Shivans and 'got away'.  They seemed pretty desperate to get their hands on ETAK by the end, after all.

Maybe what the GTVI found - from the war and from the GTI - scared the hell out of them.  They found something which they could not make public, because it would destroy the alliance to know.  Maybe it wasn't even about the Shivans, maybe it was about the Ancients, or even the Vasudans.....

[dan87uk]

i think perhaps the GTI accidentally let the shivans into ross128 somehow and tried to do somthing that went horribly wrong, like they met a lone cruiser that was making a 'dead' patrol for the shivans when the gti tried to capture it perhaps which alerted the shivans?? and bosch maybe delved far enough into the GTVI's database on old GTI activities that he learnt of the ancients devices and pehaps other shivan information

[aldo_14]

If the GTVI knew of a Knossos device -  a device capable of re-opening the route to Sol - why would they hide knowledge of it?  

And if the reason for that was security - i.e. the fear of the Shivans using it* - why leave it unguarded in a provincial system?

(*a very strange fear, as the Shivans used a multitude of unknown / unstable nodes during the Great War)

[Singh]

that begs the question: how exactly did the shivans stumble onto the terrans and vasudans?

A clue might be the fact that they were in conflict. In the ancients cutscene, the ancients tresspassed into subspace, and the shivans took note. But it was after the destruction of billions took place that the Shivans interrupted that war. Could something similar had happened for the terran/vasudan forces?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Singh
that begs the question: how exactly did the shivans stumble onto the terrans and vasudans?

A clue might be the fact that they were in conflict. In the ancients cutscene, the ancients tresspassed into subspace, and the shivans took note. But it was after the destruction of billions took place that the Shivans interrupted that war. Could something similar had happened for the terran/vasudan forces?

It's a theory that fits with the Shivans reappearance taking place during the NTF conflict.  But it doesn't seem logical how supernova-ing Capella would stop a conflict; the Shivan fleet of Sathani was more than capable of wiping out the GTVa, so why didn't they?

And what did Bosch tell them in the first place...his monologue speaks of a tentative alliance, but what can humanity offer a race like the Shivans?

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by Raa

So... what? The Vasudans are a curse on the Terran's existance? What is that supposed to mean? That Terrans and Vasudans aren't even supposed to intermingle? What?

No, you're looking at this from a wrong point of view. The Vasudans didnt have as much luck as the Terrans.

Originally posted by Singh

But I just saw the FS1 ancient cutscenes....both are very, very contrasting and different in nature. In the ancients cutscene, the ancients sing the tune that they trangressed into subspace, and the Shivans were the direct result of this transgression. Yet, Bosch dismisses this, almost as if he knows the real truth of their nature. Perhaps he has seen something more than just the Ancient's legacy, something else entirely.
But whom is hte right one here? Is Bosch right, or the ancients? Which theory will hold true? or through some strange twist of fate, was FS3 meant to be the combination of both? Or is it merely the Denial of both assumptions?

No, they do not contrast, in fact they fit together like two opposite pieces in a puzzle. He hasn't seen something more, but has reached his own conclusions, probably with the help of material the GTI gathered. Bosch is certain of why things happened, and how, and he is amused of the explanations the Ancients came up with to describe the Shivans' behaviour. He thinks it ironic than in a certain way they were so right... and in the end, yet so wrong.

The shivans opened up a subspace vortex of unimaginable proportions in the capella system, but the most important question is not why but where did they go, and what did they do there? From the movie, it appears that the shivans actually triggered the nova as well as a secondary explosion of sorts. the first was the nova we saw consuming everything, but what was the second? From what we could gleam, this had nothing to do with the Shivan's main motives or movements, or their earlier hatred against the Terrans, as they made no further attempts to move the Sathanas fleet towards the terrans.

The second explosion is also from the supernova. It's the actual nova. And in contrast to what you said, isn't it rather probable that the Shivans actually closed a "gigantic node" (if you want to put it that way) around the Capellan sun? Think of what happened with the Lucifer, or the Bastion.

This begs the question: did the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis suffer a similar fate thousands - if not millions of years before? If the shivans were there, beyond the Knossos, why didn't they invade the ancients with all the sathanii?

Maybe because different ships serve different purposes?

The Lucifer is the only Shivan vessel that ever attacked a planet. The Sathanas is the only Shivan vessel that has (with our knowledge) caused a supernova.

And yes, listen to Bosch's monologue in the nebula. It is indeed possible that the nebula was "created" just that way. It's only when he wonders about the age of the nebulae, and supernova remnants, that doubt arises in him about his plan.

Also, something strange occured during the endpart1 cutscene....

If you look on when the Rakshasha and the Deimos are fighting, in the background you can observe a Hapshetput class destroyer being blown to smithereens...but this isn't hte interesting bit. Instead observe the Moloch class corvette that's right nearby it, it appears to be firing a shivan beam at an enemy ship of unknown class and configuration, but the glows appears to be in the wrong place. It could just have been an explosion effect though.

Really? It just fires on the circling Deimos for me. Absolutely nothing weird there. Could you post a screenie?

 

But skip a bit forwards, to after the shivans jump out. Now see the same beam....it's originating from the unknown ship! and it is clearly shivan in nature! Meaning that either the ships in the background are SOC with refitted shivan beams, or shivans were firing on each other for some same reason........

No, the Moloch is firing on the Deimos with beams far off in the background. I really, really can't see anything there. Again, screenies?

Originally posted by Singh

Which is what I find hard to believe. GTVI would have a really hard time explaining how they lost such knowledge, and to me, it seems all to suspicious they pawned it off on the destruction of the hades.....they'd have a hell of a lot more use for it when nobody else knows they know about it.

Heheh, caught you there. GTVA != GTVI. It's the same as if you assumed GTA = GTI in FS1, which obviously wasn't the case.

 

Did Bosch really go to excavate things from deneb? or did he go to steal them? If the GTVI buried tihs knowledge, they'd definately want nobody to touch it...but Bosch knew, and he knew how to get it. It was probably the reason the GTVI didn't want him destroyed either, since he held the information they had, and they couldn't afford to loose it either.

You're definately thinking along the right lines now.

 

The ETAK was definately something Bosch got from before, but continued to enhance throughout the journey, as seen by the Sunder and the Hinton. Of course, due to alpha 1 he failed in that objective, and had to settle for something crude and rudimentary. If it was otherwise, I doubt he'd have been able to do much else.........

He didn't fail. Everything worked out more or less like planned. He triggered the self destruct on the Iceni, and that was planned. He didn't want ETAK to fall into anyone else's hands. As for why it was "rudimentary and crude", his crew probably panicked. They didn't know Bosch's true motives... until it was too late for them.  They (the NTF) were merely pawns in his game of chess.

Originally posted by aldo_14

And what did Bosch tell them in the first place...his monologue speaks of a tentative alliance, but what can humanity offer a race like the Shivans?

Help. Help to defeat the GTVA. Not that they'd need it, but it could... simplify things. It's not like he's forming an alliance, he's rather "pleading for mercy". Bosch uses the only thing, a random coinsidence that could ensure the survival of the human race: The fact that Sol is cut off, unable to ever get into a surrounding system again, IF the GTVA is stopped. The future, is Sol.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
Help. Help to defeat the GTVA. Not that they'd need it, but it could... simplify things. It's not like he's forming an alliance, he's rather "pleading for mercy". Bosch uses the only thing, a random coinsidence that could ensure the survival of the human race: The fact that Sol is cut off, unable to ever get into a surrounding system again, IF the GTVA is stopped. The future, is Sol.

But what could Bosch offer?  His rebellion is crushed, his crew and flagship gone, he's alone with some command crew on a Shivan vessel.  All he can offer is intel... intel on a species already vastly inferior and outnumbered.  If the Shivans truly want to defeat the GTVA, they don't  need Bosch.  He's more useful if they want peace, because he's a cultural link.

[Singh]

I think Bosch offered himself....study mono 3. The Ravana is trailing the Iceni at a distance, but yet not firing upon it. This is odd, to say the least, as the destroyer fired upon all other vessel immediately after spotting them....yet it knew, and it simply followed....as if knowing he was onboard....were they waiting for him?

Could it be that ETAK attracted their attention way before it was activated?

I'll answer the rest of LS's points a bit later...

[Gloriano]

Originally posted by aldo_14
If the GTVI knew of a Knossos device -  a device capable of re-opening the route to Sol - why would they hide knowledge of it?  

Because they are GTVI? and they did have other plans, like maybe they controlled Bosch to build Etak and use that "Tested that it works

Remember how GTVI didn't try stop Bosch even if they could do that

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Singh
I think Bosch offered himself....study mono 3. The Ravana is trailing the Iceni at a distance, but yet not firing upon it. This is odd, to say the least, as the destroyer fired upon all other vessel immediately after spotting them....yet it knew, and it simply followed....as if knowing he was onboard....were they waiting for him?

Could it be that ETAK attracted their attention way before it was activated?

I'll answer the rest of LS's points a bit later...

Welcome into my parlour, said the spider to the fly

EDIT; of course, Bosch talks about bringing the destroyers to him, so maybe he's broadcasting something to get the Shivans attention....

[NGTM-1R]

There's a simpler explanation.

The Iceni is capable of outrunning a Ravana. That's what it is doing. Bosch does not wish to take the chance he and his work will be destroyed until he has made positive contact with the Shivans.