Author Topic: Nano Jumping is Stupid  (Read 10320 times)

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Offline StratComm

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Ah, ok I see your point (still don't agree with you there, but that's fine - it's not like any of this is ever explained).
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline karajorma

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You still see it as simply being down to a limit on the minimum jump distance then?

Well I am imposing a limit too. I'm just explaining the reason for it :)
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Offline StratComm

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My reason for a minimum distance is timing.  If you want to get treknical, it's because a subspace drive must ramp a ship's n-th dimentional vibration up to enter subspace and then dampen it down again to exit, and this simply cannot be done quickly enough to exit subspace within extreme proximity (lets say 100 clicks, maybe an order of magnitude or two higher, but something like that) without the ship's subspace momentum carrying it farther.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline pyro-manic

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StratComm: I'm not sure we know enough about the nature of subspace to say that. Yes, the ship has to be at the same frequency, but is that what actually make it enter subspace, or does it merely facilitate entry? And what about different frequencies? There's presumably a rather large range that subspace covers (the whole tracking the Lucifer through the Sol node thingy suggests this to me), so perhaps distance is affected (even controlled?) by the frequency? So different "layers" of subspace allow you to travel different distances. So the hardest-to-reach, or "furthest" layers, that give you the longest range, are only accessible via jump nodes, whereas the "closest" layers are much easier to get to, but only allow you to travel short distances.

OK, end of wild conjecture. Just wanted to post some of my thoughts... :)
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Offline Flaser

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I hate when no-one picks out the important part from my long rants.
I'll do my best to write it clearly:

Assumption no.1: Subspace is not a separate entity, real space and subspace are one and the same
Assumption no.2: As a result all laws of pysics are the same "in subspace" (since you're still in normal space).

Q: What do I mean one and the same?
A: String theory calls for a 10 or 25 dimensional universe, where all particles are handled as small elementary oscillators buzzing among the said dimensions.

Q: How is that possible when we only see 4 dimensions on a macro scale?
A: Imagine an orange - it's a sphere. However up close it has all these bumps and ridges. The same happens here. 4 of the dimensions act on a macroscale while the rest are wrapped up and only effect things on really small (quantum physics) distance.

Q: What does that have to do with subspace?
A: Subspace is exactly the said dimensions of normal space. You can't really enter subspace since you're already in it. You can't normally move along those dimensions.

Theory:

When you enter subspace, you're not going anywher - all you do is actually force all the particles in you and your ship to oscillate more violently among said dimensions - forcing them to "unwrap".

The trick is that although everything is present in all dimensions, their coordinates may be wildly different from those in the conventional 4d space.

To shrink space or warp space (something that you don't really do but your that's your perception of the event) by moving along a dimension where the distance between you and your target is a lot less than in normal dimensions.

As you see it's not quite like the Albaquerque drive that's often reffered to as warp and what Trekkie ships seem to use. (Where you create a ripple in space and ride the wave).

You don't warp space - that's only your perception of the event - you merly force it act as continuum along the dimensions that normally take effect only on quantum level.

Q: What does gravity have to do with all of this?
A1: On its own nothing. However since it already warps space it may lower the energy nivo of forcing its "hidden" dimensions to unwrap.
A2: It still affects you while you're moving in the said dimensions. You can probably pick dimensions where your destination's field of gravity pulls you stronger than your departure points. Doing that will negate the need for a prolusion device "in subspace". (The current that seems to pull everything in the corridor could be this).

Q: So what does gravity have to do with nodes?
A: Probably not much - it makes unwrapping space easier, but if the effect were enough to reach another star we wouldn't have nodes.

Q: If so what are nodes?
A: Failures and/or irregularities inhereted from the Bib Boom - portions of space where the hidden dimensions are still somewhat unwrapped.

Q: So is there any "source" or "origin" of subspace?
A: Yes and no. The structure of the universe was probably always like this.
-   However if you ask about the origin of the nodes, the Big Boom may be guilty: at the time the energy levels were so high that all the dimensions were unwrapped since any oscillation must have been huge. As the expansion took place and the average energy levels lowered and for some reason the energy didn't evenly propagate on all dimensions, therefore some of the dimensions where enriched others depleted leading to unwrapped and wrapped dimensions. Irregularities though allowed parts of the universe to differ - with some of their dimension not so un/wrapped.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 10:21:21 pm by 997 »
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Offline Kie99

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here is something very important to the continuation of this debate:

Ships don't have to move when they are travelling through subspace:

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Lacking normal references in subspace, perhaps the Lucifer, being the largest object visible, is the frame of reference chosen by the navigation system on your fighter and therefore doesn't appear to move?

Okay, that's a stretch. But chase missions feel rather boring when neither your capship nor theirs is actually moving. Motion is what makes it a chase, after all. Having both the chaser(s) and the chasee exit subspace from the same point in a chase only makes sense, as well, and for that at least one of them has to move.

In the case of escort missions, motion, and a defined jump-out point, give the player a visible objective as opposed to a somewhat nebulous timelimit. I don't look at the mission clock so often when dogfighting, and I'm willing to bet and lay odds that most other folks don't either. It's much easier to visibly see how close the ship I'm escorting is to its exit point.

In short, this is where good gameplay overrides being canon-friendly.
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Offline TopAce

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^ ^ ^ ^

I would say the same, if the Lucifer were moving, that mission would be less enjoyable.
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
My reason for a minimum distance is timing.  If you want to get treknical, it's because a subspace drive must ramp a ship's n-th dimentional vibration up to enter subspace and then dampen it down again to exit, and this simply cannot be done quickly enough to exit subspace within extreme proximity (lets say 100 clicks, maybe an order of magnitude or two higher, but something like that) without the ship's subspace momentum carrying it farther.


Sounds fair enough to me. I prefer my explaination but yours covers all the important points too :D
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by TopAce
^ ^ ^ ^

I would say the same, if the Lucifer were moving, that mission would be less enjoyable.


*ding*

:D

And that, is all we really need to know about movement in subspace.

 

Offline Hippo

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I agree with flaser with everything, except that there has to be some way that (in the FS universe), gravity effects subspace a lot more. Everything has gravity, including the lucifer... But the lucifer would probably not have enough gravity to, for instance, move a space shuttle parked 50 meters away, with no outside forces acting on it. Mass is directly proportional to gravity, through some formula involving n², that i don't remember... So taking the gravity effect coming from the lucifer, and again, ignoring almost everything else, you could say that subspace is effected by even small amounts of gravetational distortion, allowing the subspace "bubble" for lack of better terms, to be extended around the lucifer. Subspace tracking meerly needs to locate this "bubble" and "reach" it (without actually arriving anywhere, or assemling atoms, only to reach the same "frequency" (again, bad word) of the lucifer...


That would make more sense if i knew the words for half the stuff i was trying to babble about...
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Offline TrashMan

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Anyone know how supspace tracking works?

Do you detect the ship whan it's starting it's jump or when it's in subspace.
Do you even have to be in visual/main sensor range of the ship when it's jumping to detect it.

In other words - if a ship is hiding in a asteroid field and makes a jump toward a enemy position,  can the enemy detect it before it arrives?
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Offline StratComm

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From what we've seen, the ship doing the tracking has to be within sensor/visial range of the jumping ship as it departs, and it's subspace vector is derived from that.  You can't see them coming if they are jumping from a hidden location or just plain outside of sensor range of allied ships.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Hippo

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maybe... we don't know if the bellasarius was tracked by the blocade, or by command by elsewhere...


so it could be debated either way...
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Offline StratComm

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Well, other instances of tracking seem to rely on ships being present.  In Clash of the Titans (FS1), when you jump in the Bastion reports that the Lucifer is not there and that it must have jumped on to Delta Serpentis.  Not that they'd tracked it there.  Plus in that same mission they did not pick up the Demon before it jumped in.  In the next mission, the Bastion was present and tracked the Lucifer into the DS-Sol node as fighters were being scrambled to intercept it.

Also, in FS2, there's never any warning that hostile ships are about to jump in unless they retreated from another engagement or ran a blockade.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 
To defend campaigns such as Inferno, that take place in the future (and I mean, more than 10 years after Capella): What's not to say that the technology to perform nano-jumping hasn't been invented yet? For all we know, the EA made a jump drive that allowed nano-jumping for quick jumps. Just a possibility. However, maybe that shouldn't be able to jump and arrive so close to their original spot. Example: the Shivan corvette in Boomerang.
Spoiler:
It arrived a good distance away from its original position when it nano-jumped. (when it was attacking the mining station)

 

Offline tofu

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Personally, I think the problem is that there aren't any well-established, set in stone physics for the Freespace universe.  What I mean is, the capability is there to make jumps, so we just assume that ships can jump anywhere at any time.  Most people also assume that there is some delay between jumps to recharge or something, but even that isn't a really well-established fact, it's just an assumption.

If you're going to make up a universe for a sci-fi book or something, one of the first things you should do is write down the rules for that universe.  Here is a quick example off the top of my head:

rule 1: inside of a solar system, ships can only make jumps between places where the distortion of space-time due to large bodies is equal.

For example, in the inner solar system, the sun's gravity greatly distorts space-time.  The Earth also distorts space-time.  If you're in low earth orbit, the total distortion of space-time for your location is equal to the sum of what you feel from the sun at 1AU plus what you get from the Earth.  Jupiter is much farther away from the sun, so the distortion due to the sun is much less, but Jupiter is also very big and distorts space-time more than the Earth.  At some distance from Jupiter, the sum of Jupiter + the sun is equal to the sum of the sun + the earth.  That means that you can make a jump from low earth orbit to that orbital distance from Jupiter.

Mars on the other hand, is smaller than the Earth and farther away from the sun, so there's no way to jump from low earth orbit to any orbit around mars.  What you've have to do to get to mars is use your sublight engines to travel away from the Earth, then you'd be able to jump into low martian orbit.

I guess I'm rambling so I'll stop there. The point is that rules like this give you a reason to do something in the game world.  As it stands now, there are no rules, so I always have to ask the question, "why is that freighter just sitting there letting me attack it?  Why doesn't it just jump to the other side of the solar system?  Why did this ship jump in 2km away from the inter-system node?  Now I have to guard it for like an hour while it slowly moves toward the node.  Why didn't it jump in 3 inches away from the node and immediately jump out of the system?"  A set of rules governing the physics of this imaginary universe would answer a lot of those questions.  Then you could say, for instance, that because of this space station's proximity to this planet, a ship starting out at the inter-system node, will always jump in at 5km away.  Of course, the good news is that if it's followed, the bad guys will also have to jump in 5km away.  See, having made up physics rules like that gives you a good framework for creating scenarios.

Anyway, like the original poster, I'm just expressing an opinion and hopefully spurring discussion.  I realize that no such rules exist in freespace and I don't want anyone to think that I'm telling them what to do.

 

Offline StratComm

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I know of very few Sci-fi universes in which there does exist a concrete, set-in-stone set of rules.  It'd be nice if they were around in the rest, but I don't think they suffer from their lack.  It needs to work first and foremost, but once that's been established no one cares about the specifics.  And since sci-fi is inherently entertainment, the last thing you want to do is actually try to present those rules to the audience, as they'll fall asleep before they actually get to the story.  All we can do is debate what does and does not make sense given what we do know.  From what the game has shown us and from what can be inferred from things like slow capital ship cruising speed and the relative distances between objects in-game, things like the recharge time on jump engines are all-but-given (I think it's actually mentioned in King's Gambit, so there's canon reference to it too) as are issues of jump precision, etc.  Part of the problem is that it's been so long since some of us actually played through the campaign that we literally don't remember how :v: used their sci-fi the same way as everyone else :)
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Kie99

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The reson ships don't just "Jump in 3 inches from the node and then immediately (sp?) jump out again" is because they need to r3charg3 their jump drives, as it is mentioned in the briefing for:
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Offline Flaser

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Quote
Originally posted by Hippo
I agree with flaser with everything, except that there has to be some way that (in the FS universe), gravity effects subspace a lot more. Everything has gravity, including the lucifer... But the lucifer would probably not have enough gravity to, for instance, move a space shuttle parked 50 meters away, with no outside forces acting on it. Mass is directly proportional to gravity, through some formula involving n², that i don't remember... So taking the gravity effect coming from the lucifer, and again, ignoring almost everything else, you could say that subspace is effected by even small amounts of gravetational distortion, allowing the subspace "bubble" for lack of better terms, to be extended around the lucifer. Subspace tracking meerly needs to locate this "bubble" and "reach" it (without actually arriving anywhere, or assemling atoms, only to reach the same "frequency" (again, bad word) of the lucifer...


That would make more sense if i knew the words for half the stuff i was trying to babble about...


Gravity doesn't have to affect subspace anymore!

Actually the relation of gravity is:

F = f * (M*m) / r^2

F = Force
f = gravitic constant (a very small number)
M = mass of one body
m = mass of other body
r = radius or distance between the bodies

Gravity actually doesn't have a fundemetally prime effect on subspace - since it's not a separate entity, but a form or complexity of ordinary space-time that has little effect most of the time.
All of the forces - magnetic fields, electrostatic fields, gravity - all affect you when you've unwrapped the dimensions and move along them.

The only reason why I spoke of gravity primerly is that is the only force that stellard bodies have on your ship unless you wanna take a dip in a sun.

Electromagnetic fields, electromagnetic particles probably also seem warp space to a degree, but do so on different dimensions. (This could be why the Whiteside drive works).*

There is a trick to this whole warping I will cover later on**

When the Bastion chased the Lucifer, most of the time they knew what node it passed through, so its destination was known.

The problem is that there are an unlimited number of ways you can get from point A to point B through these hidden dimensions.
Even through a corridor (which may have any shape!) the Lucifer could use any given path it saw fit.

Subspace tracking is precisly knowing the dimensions, or how you precisly put it: the vector it took to go from point A to point B.

**I also must explain something: you're not in a bubble of real space! You don't need any bubble.
I stressed it that the warp effect is only your perception - you don't warp space.

The ship taking a subspace jump doesn't warp space, open up the hidden dimensions or forming a bubble and forcing that through these dimensions.
Instead it forces all of its particles to resonate on THOSE dimensions  and bit by bit its whole energy is transferred to those dimensions.
The ship will still have part of its oscillations in in real space coordinates - but those will be reduced to quantic levels that are similar to what his other oscillations used to be. - You can go through it as if it was ghost, your presence having little effect on him and vice versa.

The nice thing about this is that most manmade objects have very little energy density in subspace without jumping on your vector. Even if you jump, but on a different vector they will still have a very low energy density. (Under energy density I mean the sum of oscillations that your main osciallations are on.)
However big natural object like planets or suns, even though they have little energy density their huge volume still makes them a notable presence.
Therefore you can still see suns and planets in subspace, but they're but a shadow of their normal selves.

It is possible that some of the missing matter, or the dark matter is actually in this state, therefore along certain vectors you'll find otherwise invisible objects - suns, nebulae or planets.
Some vectors may be so plagued in cetain areas with such matter or energy that it is impossible to travel along those vectors even if they are accesable.

You probably don't need a drive once you've enterred this state.
Depending on your vector, something may grab you/push you or you may end up lost in this state, floating forever - this happened to the Nyarlhoteph.

The question is how do ships force this resonation in their structure? If it need physical contact each and every ship must use its own drive to enter and exit subspace. However a ship may deploy fighters once in subspace, and those will have the same vector as the launcher. - I'm inclined to believe this.

That's why the Lucifer could launch ships in subspace, but you needed a special intersystem drive to chase it.
When the Lucifer exits, you already have the same vector as it does, so exit jumping will put you in the almost exact space.

There is also a possibility that was never used in the series: changing your vector once 'en route.
The problem is that even though some of your reference points may still be present - like suns or gasgiant - but their readings won't correlate at all to their normal ones, and there is no whatsoever insurance that your vector "shrunk" space isotrophly (equally among all directions).
Still during an intrasystem jump, with a shallow and slow vector a truely gifted pilot (with maybe a good sense of fortune / scrying :) ) may be able to change his vector en-route and effectily move around the solar system instead using inter-mittent jumps.

What is also rarely taken into account by mission desingers (unlike the overdiscussed recharge time) is the severity of navigation problems.

Once you made a jump, all you have is the data of the subspace vector, which doesn't have any correlation with your jump vector in realspace.
Space is not uniform, subspace has different properties in all of it.
Not only do you need to acertain your position once in real space, but to be able to jump next time with precision you also have to map the properties of subspace in the area - along as many vectors as possible.

First off: Acertaning your position is darn hard - explorer ships will spend a couple of weeks at minimum looking for similar stars. The problem is that the similar stars your looking for may be anywhere in their liftime. The light you're used to coming from them has been travelling for hundreds of years. When you jump to a different location the light will have to cross a different distance therefore it will have different properties since its from a different period of the star's life.
You will have to look for nebule and specific galaxies far away that change little with a couple of hundrey light year jump.
Also for a more precise measurement you'll have to look for star groups in the apropiate setting (their setup changes with time too! The stars move and the star signes chagne...).

So once you've made the jump, your hapless navigator spent the next 4 weeks doing a million readings to tell you that's you've moved 4 parsecs outwards in the galaxy.

Next you have to map subspace in the area for a couple of vectors. Once done, you jump back and hope your readings are good enough to arrive at the right place.

There could be devious nodes around that aren't just simple tunnels - systems or webs that connect several star system. They may be too complex for the GTVA and or too dangerous.
This could explain why the GTA maps had more nodes - the GTVA later decided to abandon some of these trick or not so trustworthy routes.

If you return, its time to have another go - you've only made a map for a couple of vectors, you need to cover a spectrum of vectors to make sure that a wide range of ships with different subspace drives would be able to make the journey.

*Artificial Gravity may be a byproduct of the subspace drive - instead a complete shift, we force the particles to change into gravitons.
The most likely problem why the system isn't widely used or employed as a weapon***  that it must have a sizeable subspace drive, and only very high energy particles can be forced to convert.

***In Infinite Ryvius they had gravity weapons - those things are worse that whatever any of you degrade them to be. You can slice up a planet! The Death Star is a toy compared to that...
« Last Edit: February 16, 2005, 03:01:26 pm by 997 »
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