Author Topic: Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for  (Read 3557 times)

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Offline redmenace

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
The question I am asking is if they don't want to vote. is it s a sham?
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Offline Flipside

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Hmmmm... I suppose it depends why they don't want to vote though. Was it because of distrust of the system, whether justified or not?

I don't think the elections were a 'Sham' as such, but I don't doubt the US forces presence in the country had an infuence on the outcome, it makes it a lot lot easier to believe that the thing was a sham.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
The question I am asking is if they don't want to vote. is it s a sham?


Did they even have a choice?

 

Offline karajorma

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Exactly Aldo. RedMenace appears to be treating the entire Sunni population as if they are all clones who did exactly what was asked of them.

How many people did want to vote but didn't want to risk being shot or blown up to do it?
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Offline redmenace

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no, I contend that a vast majority of them would not have voted had the sunni triangle area been secure, mostly due to before mentioned facts, they are resentful of no longer being in power, they were told to boycot the elections by Sunni Clerics and terrorists, mainly consisting of Sunnis, were threatening to cut off their heads if they did vote.
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Offline vyper

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
If it had been secure your terrorists beheading folk wouldn't be a problem... :wtf:
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Offline redmenace

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
timewarp :lol:

no I was listing reasons they didn't show up. when i argue something I try and be honest about the causes.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
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Offline Rictor

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
redmenace: choosing not to vote grants the elections even less legitimacy than not voting due to feat of attacks. See, when a sizeable portion of the population boycotts a vote, that means they see no one who represents their interests and rejects the authority and legitimacy of the government that is to take power.

It a different thing if I vote and then have to live with a government I didn't pick. In that case, I "played the game" and lost, so now I must bow to the will of the majority. If however, I choose not the vote, that means I didn't "play the game" and want nothing to do with it. A similar thing happened in Kosovo recently, when the Serb population chose to boycott the vote so as not to grant legitimacy to the government which would almost inevitably work against their welfare.

 

Offline redmenace

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
But why are they choosing not to? Is it plain and simple resentment? Their motives are in question here as well. If I sizeable portion of the US population decided to boycott an election for simply stupid and selfish reasons. Would that make it illigitamite. I will be honest, I can't read the minds if the individual Sunnis but my suspicions is that at least half of sunnis and pissed about not being able to repress the majority. The pther half are worried about the other half cutting off their heads.

Very stimulating conversation but I must finish my exam for my uber finance axam tomorrow.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 08:46:46 pm by 887 »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
redmenace: choosing not to vote grants the elections even less legitimacy than not voting due to feat of attacks. See, when a sizeable portion of the population boycotts a vote, that means they see no one who represents their interests and rejects the authority and legitimacy of the government that is to take power.

It a different thing if I vote and then have to live with a government I didn't pick. In that case, I "played the game" and lost, so now I must bow to the will of the majority. If however, I choose not the vote, that means I didn't "play the game" and want nothing to do with it. A similar thing happened in Kosovo recently, when the Serb population chose to boycott the vote so as not to grant legitimacy to the government which would almost inevitably work against their welfare.


That's not the way it works.

By not voting, you forfeit your right to have any participation in your own government whatsoever. Boycotting a vote is stupid and senseless, for it only insures that your voice will not be heard. The government is there: whether it is legitimate or not is rather a moot point unless you posess the means to change it. By boycotting a democratic vote, you deny yourself one of those means. Perhaps, as you say, there is no canidate that represents their interests. Regardless, the Sunnis have even denied themselves the right to choose the lesser of the evils they are presented with.

The vote has been made, the government elected, and it rules the Sunnis whether they voted or not. The Sunnis must still bow to the will of the majority, regardless. That is the reality of things, there is no escaping it at present.
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Offline Rictor

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Do you understand the word democracy? Saying that people should be ruled, whether they like it or not, is in direct contradiction to the principle of freedom. If you preach democracy, you must accept that people can choose to simply take themselves out of the system. After all, if you accept that the Sunnis are subject to the authority of the new government, even though they didn't elect it, how is that different from Saddam?

Unelected governments are illegitmate. No two ways about it..

 

Offline aldo_14

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
But why are they choosing not to? Is it plain and simple resentment? Their motives are in question here as well. If I sizeable portion of the US population decided to boycott an election for simply stupid and selfish reasons. Would that make it illigitamite. I will be honest, I can't read the minds if the individual Sunnis but my suspicions is that at least half of sunnis and pissed about not being able to repress the majority. The pther half are worried about the other half cutting off their heads.

Very stimulating conversation but I must finish my exam for my uber finance axam tomorrow.


a) because they live in what are effectively lawless regions where death is a real possibility for those who turn up at a voting station (again, remember some places were simply left off the voting list as being too unsafe anyways)

b) their representative parties had already boycotted the election as taking place in too poor a security situation.  Whilst there was probably a degree of self interest in that move for the parties, it means there was no natural sunni representative to vote for.

Youre making a dangerous assumption that the boycott was for stupid and selfish reasons.  And, again, you have to note that it's not just a sizeable propoprtion, it's a complete ethnic group.  It's roughly equivalent, I think, to the entire population of Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland* not voting in a general election at least partly due to a lack of parties, security and/or polling stations.

*technically, that's still less than 20%.

Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r


That's not the way it works.

By not voting, you forfeit your right to have any participation in your own government whatsoever. Boycotting a vote is stupid and senseless, for it only insures that your voice will not be heard. The government is there: whether it is legitimate or not is rather a moot point unless you posess the means to change it. By boycotting a democratic vote, you deny yourself one of those means. Perhaps, as you say, there is no canidate that represents their interests. Regardless, the Sunnis have even denied themselves the right to choose the lesser of the evils they are presented with.

The vote has been made, the government elected, and it rules the Sunnis whether they voted or not. The Sunnis must still bow to the will of the majority, regardless. That is the reality of things, there is no escaping it at present.


Democracy requires a free and fair vote; the security circumstances in the Sunni areas of Iraq prevented either taking place there.  Also, democracy is not about choosing the 'lesser of evils' - it's about choosing a representative who matches your views and values.   UK / US democracy is about that now, yes, but that doesn't make it good.

Again, what you should be remembering is that the choice to boycott was not a free choice to make - we don't call elections legitimate if armed men are telling you who to vote for,  so why should we call them legit if armed men are telling you not to vote. (and the more Sunnis feel marginalised politcally, the more support for armed insurgency may grow).

As it stands, all / any Sunni representation will be solely determined by Shi'ite and Kurdish elected parties; and this is the 'government' which will draft the constitution of the country - surely the one of all which has to have equal and fair representation?

 

Offline karajorma

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
redmenace: choosing not to vote grants the elections even less legitimacy than not voting due to feat of attacks.


I 100% disagree with you there.  And I'm the first to say that the election is a sham.
 What made the election a sham is the fact the fact that certain people couldn't vote even if they had wanted to because there were no polling stations in their region because it was too dangerous. The fact that voters were intimidated into not voting is what makes it a sham.


Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
See, when a sizeable portion of the population boycotts a vote, that means they see no one who represents their interests and rejects the authority and legitimacy of the government that is to take power.  


I wouldn't deny that. However lets take a look at the voter turn out for western elections. Hmmmm. Not that good either. Millions of people don't vote in the west either because they see all the canditates as a bunch of w**kers who don't represent their interests.

If you follow your logic then democracy is a sham in any modern election. Iraq wasn't a special case.

Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
It a different thing if I vote and then have to live with a government I didn't pick. In that case, I "played the game" and lost, so now I must bow to the will of the majority. If however, I choose not the vote, that means I didn't "play the game" and want nothing to do with it. A similar thing happened in Kosovo recently, when the Serb population chose to boycott the vote so as not to grant legitimacy to the government which would almost inevitably work against their welfare.


Well they made a bad choice then. The decision not to vote is the same as an actual vote. Deciding not to vote for the reasons you gave above is exactly the same as making a protest vote for another party. Like it or not by abstaining you have played the game.

If you really think that there is a chance that your point of view has any chance of gaining the support of a signifcant number of people put up a candidate and get them to run on your platform.

What you can't do is fail to put up a candidate who wouldn't have won anyway and then spit out your dummy and complain that the election is unfair because you didn't participate in an election you never would have won anyway.
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Offline Rictor

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
I'm not saying that there was no intimidation and no security problems, obviously there were a hell of a lot of both.  I will also admit that, assuming no major "irregularities" come to light, which is not at all certain, the election went quite a bit better than I thought it would.

However, I don't believe that a viable democracy can exist under occupation. And I'm not just wailing against the US, the same applies to for example Lebanon. I don't think even the some ardent hawks can claim that the US presence is welcome by even a significant minority of the population.  The election was essentially the triumph of the United Shia List and the Kurds, with almost no representation going to the Sunnis. I think we can agree that regardless of the reasons for this happening, this is no way to run a representative democracy. I'm a skeptic, but we'll see how this turns out.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Rictor, I have an honest question.  This is the first attempt at democracy in Iraq, which, as we all know, is not exactly the most stable region on the planet.  Under these conditions, can you or anyone else honestly expect things to go anywhere near swimmingly?  Of course there were areas that are too hostile to vote; there are assholes blowing up innocent civilians every day in certain sections of the country, and the coalition troops can't protect everyone.  Of course you're going to have resentment from Sunnis; their minority held a massively disproportionate amount of power under Saddam, and now that he's gone, I'm sure that many of them are still bitter.  The point is, all of this is inevitable.  It's their first attempt at a democracy; these things won't go perfectly the first time around.  If I remember correctly, our own first attempt at democracy, under the Articles of Confederation, didn't turn out so well.  Let me put it to you this way:  can you, with a straight face, say that living under Saddam's dictatorship is better than getting the chance to vote, no matter what the specific issues are surrounding the vote?

I also disagree with your statements about the elections.  There were regions unable or unwilling to vote due to security concerns, but there were also many who refused to go out of bitterness, resentment, etc.  I agree with some earlier statements:  that's their own problem.  They had their chance, and they didn't vote; now, they have to live with the consequences.

As for the "oilers," I respect anyone's right to disagree with the Iraqi war, but only if they have an informed reason.  Tossing around left-wing catch-phrases doesn't apply as "intelligent."

 

Offline aldo_14

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose


I also disagree with your statements about the elections.  There were regions unable or unwilling to vote due to security concerns, but there were also many who refused to go out of bitterness, resentment, etc.  I agree with some earlier statements:  that's their own problem.  They had their chance, and they didn't vote; now, they have to live with the consequences.


That doesn't matter; if one single region doesn't have the choice to vote, then it invalidates the legitimacy of the election.  You're saying many refused to vote out of some petty reason - how many?  Do you have proof of that, numbers, statements, in short anything to prove it was a legitamte unforced decision not to vote.  Because you can't make guesses or assumptions about what peoples voting intentions were in order to claim fairness.

 

Offline karajorma

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
That doesn't matter; if one single region doesn't have the choice to vote, then it invalidates the legitimacy of the election.  You're saying many refused to vote out of some petty reason - how many?  Do you have proof of that, numbers, statements, in short anything to prove it was a legitamte unforced decision not to vote.  Because you can't make guesses or assumptions about what peoples voting intentions were in order to claim fairness.


Exactly Aldo. The people who claim that the election isn't a sham claim that those regions don't matter because the people in them would have refused to vote anyway.

That's what makes the entire election a sham.
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Offline aldo_14

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
So the beebs 48% figure was right, then?  Go figure.

 

Offline Gank

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Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for
Nobody said it was wrong :rolleyes: