[StratComm]

It's pretty close.  I just watched the intelligence brief on Shivans the other day and most, if not all, of those points are there.

[AlphaOne]

As far as I can remember the shivans did not step over any phisichs laws....they used some sort of subspace filed which we know can generte masive amount of gravitational forces....to colapse the nucleas of the Cappella star..! Basicly what they did was to age the star to the point of its death (supernovae).

But what about this theory:

The shivans saw how much theyr old nemesis came in a very short time and started thinking "wtf? how did these guys managed to survive let alone improve on their weaponry"

Then the GTV has one more surprise for them..yes you guesed it the Colossus.

So they are like how the hell did they managed to build that thing in such a short time...?

remember that the whole role of the shivans isn't that of genocidal maniacs but also that of great preservers.

So the shivans realize that no matter how much they try to destroy these primitive beeings they wont completely succede..! the whole colapsing nodes thing.

They have learned to cooperate and coexist with one another and therefore have learned the secret to theyr survival. Lets not forget that during the first shivan war these guis were only working together because theyr existence depended on it. Who could of believed that theyr aliance would last and prosper and evolve. Remember that there was more then one instance when terra ships were saved or aided by the vasudans and the same goes for the vasudans.

So when they decided not to destroy the GTVA but rather delay its expansion by its destruction of the Capella star they actualy made some sort of temparary peace in twisted and genocidal kind of way.  They also made a statement:
"either you work togheter and learn to coexist with eachother and who ever you might encounter, or this will be yout fate...!"

Remember that the GTVA has lost one of its most important sistems as well as most of its fleet. My guess is that the shivans saw that the GTVA would eventualy get over this and become even more powerfull not as powerfull as them but more powerfull and a lot more wise.

And if let's say for the sake of the arguement they are involved in some sort of war much bigger then what they had with the GTVA that could only reinforce the belief that they were actualy preaparing us for this war in case they lose.

Sure a lot will say that how good is that when you are getting your most important sistems cut off from you or destroyed but think about it. The terrans lost most of theyr manufacturing capabilities not to mention the most abundant resource harvesting field they had (Sol) but that did not stop them they adapted they evolved. Now if they had not survived then to the shivans its all the same.

The GTVA made a statement just like they did (sivans) when faced with the ancients  "we will not lie down and die just like that. If we are to go down then we would make it such a battle...that we will not be forgotten " The ancints werent they were eventualy discovered by GTVA archeologists.

[KappaWing]

My guess is that the shivans saw that the GTVA would eventualy get over this and become even more powerfull not as powerfull as them but more powerfull and a lot more wise.

It was this and other places in your theory where you tried to humanize shivans, implying that they experience fear and such.

And the GTVA will NEVER become more powerful than the Shivans (the Shivans and the GTVA knows this), plus the shivans simply have unlimited resources. Those are your two major flaws but other than that, the rest seems to make sense.

[AlphaOne]

Well again i'm not tryng to humanize them. But it would be unwise to think of the shivans as plain old genocidal maniacs.

I was tryng to say that because theyr role is that of great preservers maibe just maibe they saw the potential in us. They saw that the GTVA would eventualy come to reach theyr technological level or even better them in some areas.

Keep in mind that the GTVA has proved to be superbly skilled in adapting and improving on existing technologies of other races.

Think of the terran Mara which was a lot more powerfull then the original.

That is what i'm tryng to say.
Of course the shivans need not fear us they have no reason to but maibe just maibe they began to reagard of us as more then just another backwater civilization.

The Ancients were exterminated because they did not learn from theyr mistakes. They believed it to be almost imposible for an empire as great as theyrs and as technologicly advanced as theyrs to be wiped out by these strange beeings.

[Ghostavo]

Of course there is the possibility that the fleet that wiped out the Ancients was not just the Shivan's scouting party (Lucifer fleet), but also the entire Sathanas armada and/or maybe something more.

If such a possibility were to become true, then this is just the beginning of a much larger fight.

[/speculate mode]

[aldo_14]

Or perhaps the Shivans are simply drawn to conflict, like locusts to crops, and it took the main force 30-odd years to reach the GTVA.

[dan87uk]

Well we can debate all we want, but the truth is we'l never know the full shivan story unless :V: can get the game rights back and start making *that which cannot be mentioned* .... ..

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by KappaWing


It was this and other places in your theory where you tried to humanize shivans, implying that they experience fear and such.

And the GTVA will NEVER become more powerful than the Shivans (the Shivans and the GTVA knows this), plus the shivans simply have unlimited resources. Those are your two major flaws but other than that, the rest seems to make sense.

Shivan = living beaing.
All living beaings have basic emotions. Fear being one of them
Thus, Shivans can experience fear.

they are alien and thus, they way of thinking MIGHT (not necessarily) be completely different, but they too must share the basic properties of living things...

[Ghostavo]

Shivans != living beings
Shivans = cybernetic beings

therefore

state of mind = unknown

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
Shivans != living beings
Shivans = cybernetic beings
 

Why not Shivans = living beings?  No reason why not, especially as they are partially biological anyways.

Originally posted by TrashMan


Shivan = living beaing.
All living beaings have basic emotions. Fear being one of them
Thus, Shivans can experience fear.

they are alien and thus, they way of thinking MIGHT (not necessarily) be completely different, but they too must share the basic properties of living things...

Why should fear (or even emotions) be an integral part of life?  There's absolutely no proof I've seen of it; in fact I think there's been debate over whether these sort of emotion exist in, for example, foxes (with regard to the hunting debate).

  The Shivans - or indeed any other animal - may have a very different 'fight or flight' mechanism that doesn't require it.

[karajorma]

Fear was mearly evolutions method of stopping people (and maybe some animals) from doing stupid things.

There's nothing to say that another species wouldn't find a better method of doing it. Especially since fear can be debilitating at times and actually lessen the chances of survival.

[NGTM-1R]

Fear is a funny thing. It can make you unable to fight, but it can also make you an excellent fighter when you were horrible before.

Still, if you consider that pretty much every animal on Earth with a significantly sized brain exhibits a fear response of some sort, then I don't find it all that difficult to believe that the ability to fear would be a universal rule.

On the other hand, the Shivans seem to fear nothing and no one, which means either they don't fear on an individual level or they have some kind of conditioning against it. If they are a hive mind, as the theory runs, then I expect that they can fear, but not on an individual level.

But, seriously now, if the Sathanas was on a recon mission, how many times have you flown recon against the Shivans in a fighter? The Sathanas and the Lucifer both, the Eva, several other ships. They didn't HAVE to use a Sathanas to find out what the Colossus was capable of: a fighter wing running scans gives the same information. The GTVA learned what the Sathanas was capable of using Alpha 1 and a Ptah, after all.

As for needing the Colossus to be nearby, I've already pointed out that it's in Capella anyways, and there's no other task for it besides standing guard against the Shivans, Sathanas or not, so logically it would be in Capella and blockading the Capella-GD node. Even if it was elsewhere in the system, a recon wing could probably find it still. Besides, the Colossus is the GTVA's most powerful warship. It isn't going to be hiding. It's going to be standing guard at the Capella-GD node to ease the minds of the good citizens of Capella.

The only reason to use a Sathanas would be if Shivan fighter sensors are less advanced then those of the GTVA, and that explanation doesn't sound likely in light of the Shivans apparently operating just fine in the nebula.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Fear is a funny thing. It can make you unable to fight, but it can also make you an excellent fighter when you were horrible before.
 

That's not just fear, that's adrenaline.  Fight or flight response doesn't entail fear, just a response.  In us we manifest it as fear because that's how our own brain processes it.

NB: both missions to scan the Sath and Lucifer used a Stealth fighter and captured Shivan fighter respectively.  AFAIK the Shivans have neither stealth fighters nor captured GTVA fighters.

[NGTM-1R]

True, but we know that standard GTVA fighters are capable of conducting detailed scans, and with a few wings running interference for you and distracting the Sathanas, you could have accomplished the same mission with a Tauret or other standard fighter. There's no reason why the Shivans couldn't do the same thing to the Colossus.

[Carl]

you guys need to read the tech room databases, and what Pletcher said. The Shivans are living beings that are cybernetically enhanced. this is an objective fact.

[KappaWing]

The Shivans have no reason to conduct reconassance. They know that the GTVA is weak and feeble, as they couldent advance too far in 32 years. It's simply a matter of how much force is neccisary to destroy the GTVA. 1 Sathani? 80 Sathani? The Shivans don't deploy everything unless absolutley neccisary. They are perfectly capable of scanning and capturing, but why mess around when you could just send in a Sathanas fleet to blast away the GTVA quickly and efficiently?

I also disagree with the notion that Shivans experience fear. They (as a collective hive mind) never had anything to fear because they never were in any real danger. They easily defeat all they encounter, so they never experienced fear and probably don't even know what fear is. IMHO, the fact that Shivans destroy things indescrimatley and possess a hive mind indicates that Shivans feel no emotion at all. The hive mind might feel it, but individual Shivans would not be affected.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

it isn't a given that the Shivans have a hive mind.  That is conjecture, and so the arguement is based on conjecture.

[KappaWing]

IT'S..... TRUE!!!!!!!

All evidence points to hive mindedness! Just look at the first few pages of this thread! It's a PROVEN FACT!!!

[ShadowWolf_IH]

show me where in canon it is a proven fact.  it isn't proven.

[StratComm]

It's canonically the leading theory, supported by the behavior of the Shivan fleet after the destruction of the Lucifer.  Beyond that, it's all conjecture.