[KappaWing]

So the Hive mind was able to tell each and every ship to do something, and yet unable to know what they were doing? How could it contact every ship without knowing that sort of basic information?

They were only able to achieve one-way communication. The hive transmitter is far stronger than an individual Ship's transmitter.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by KappaWing
That is the reason why they were UNCOORDINATED!!! The Hive mind sent the signal that basically said "kill everyone" so that's what they did. That was why they didn't go bonkers, they were still recieving transmissions from the Main Hive but the Main Hive wasent getting clear readings from Shivans on the other end pertaining to the location of GTVA forces. That's why it sent out the signal to kill without coordination evidenced by the Shivan's lack of co-ordination after the Lucifer was killed!

That's still absolute nonsense. If the only transmission the Hive mind sent was kill everyone then each individual ship would have flown off and tried to kill things on their own with no planning.

The fact that there was planning indicates that there was some form of intelligence within GTVA space controlling the shivans actions. The shivans still fought with the GTVA. They still jumped in in waves and showed an understanding of tactics. It was more as if their best generals had been killed than as if they were simply zombies carrying out simple orders.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by KappaWing


They were only able to achieve one-way communication. The hive transmitter is far stronger than an individual Ship's transmitter.

You're missing the basic point. If the Shivans in GTVA space can't contact the hive mind how can the hive mind know where the enemy ships are for them to attack?

[KappaWing]

Perhaps they had an emergency leader? He couldent lead as well as the hive mind but he could keep the remaining forces from losing it entirley.

[KappaWing]

You're missing the basic point. If the Shivans in GTVA space can't contact the hive mind how can the hive mind know where the enemy ships are for them to attack?

Emergency leader. Shivans can implant stuff in themselves, right? A chosen few Shivans are implanted with a leadership gene which allows them to function as a weak hive mind. Not very effective, but it can co-ordinate basic attacks on a small scale.

[aldo_14]

So there is a leadership caste, then.

NB: actually the point was; if the Shivan fleet can't contact the hive mind, then how in hell does the hive-mind even know who it can contact, let alone where those ships are to transmit to, and what to tell them to attack.

[karajorma]

Maybe but you do realise that this new explaination works just as well without the hive mind at all? I.e the shivans were commanded from the Lucifer where their leadership caste was mostly based.

When they were killed an emergency leader from one of the other capships took over.

There is now no evidence for your theory which contradicts the evidence for mine. Can you now see why everyone is so annoyed at you for stating your opinion as if they were the only possible answer?

[KappaWing]

Sorry. I meant it as my opinion. I didn't mean for it to be taken that way. There are many possible answers. I was just trying to validate mine as one of them.

[karajorma]

You might want to post a few more, in my opinion's and I personally think that's then.

If you'd done that I doubt I would have argued with you much. MindGames states that the Shivans are a group mind.

[Kie99]

If all of the GTVA's destroyers, corvettes and installations were annihilated then I think the GTVA would behave a little differently as well.

IMO being incapable of co-ordinated attacks is no evidence of a Hive Mind.  There could have been a leadership struggle between the Shivans, after all with no Lucifer to Rule and All destroyers destroyed anyone could do what they liked.

[karajorma]

That's a possibility although we've never seen Shivans fighting themselves so most likely it would be in the form of each capship taking it's own support ships and trying to prove that it's own way of fighting the enemy was the best.

[KappaWing]

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.

In my opinion, I dont think Shivans could get involved in a power struggle, as they probably are incapable of thinking independently and are not selfish (if you want an example, look at Capella). Without the Hive Mind's control, they must simply look elsewhere for a leader. Perhaps in a Shivan designated to be a leader in a time of crisis (when hive mind is lost)? However, i think that this leader would have no power when normally under the Hive Mind. Under normal circumstances he would be just another Shivan.

[NGTM-1R]

The Tech Room gives the impression that, without the Lucifer, the Shivans were uncoordinated and started to act...well, crazily. But Silent Threat seems to say otherwise, particularly in "Hellfire".

What happened, then, would seem to be equivalent to what happens to a human force when their command, control, and communications center is blown to Kingdom Come. There's confusion, people get bad information, seperate units can't coordinate, nobody knows what anyone else is doing. There's a tendancy to feel lost and alone, to retreat, scatter. Everything pretty much falls apart. Eventually someone reestablishes control, gets in touch with everybody, and things start working again...if you aren't destroyed before then.

When the Lucifer went kablooie, the Shivans lost their primary C3 center. All of the above happened, compounded by the GTA and PVN going on the offensive and adding even more confusion to the situation. Eventually (a week, two weeks?) the secondary Shivan commanders, whoever they might be, reestablished control and got the fleet together again. (Hence "Hellfire".) But by that time it was too late. The GTA and PVN had already done too much damage to the Shivans, and they no longer had the firepower left to win.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
The Tech Room gives the impression that, without the Lucifer, the Shivans were uncoordinated and started to act...well, crazily. But Silent Threat seems to say otherwise, particularly in "Hellfire".

What happened, then, would seem to be equivalent to what happens to a human force when their command, control, and communications center is blown to Kingdom Come. There's confusion, people get bad information, seperate units can't coordinate, nobody knows what anyone else is doing. There's a tendancy to feel lost and alone, to retreat, scatter. Everything pretty much falls apart. Eventually someone reestablishes control, gets in touch with everybody, and things start working again...if you aren't destroyed before then.

When the Lucifer went kablooie, the Shivans lost their primary C3 center. All of the above happened, compounded by the GTA and PVN going on the offensive and adding even more confusion to the situation. Eventually (a week, two weeks?) the secondary Shivan commanders, whoever they might be, reestablished control and got the fleet together again. (Hence "Hellfire".) But by that time it was too late. The GTA and PVN had already done too much damage to the Shivans, and they no longer had the firepower left to win.

It's possible the techroom description descrives their overall military strategy rather than individual units or combat groups, although I've not played Silent Threat so I don't know how organised the Shivans were there.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
When the Lucifer went kablooie, the Shivans lost their primary C3 center. All of the above happened, compounded by the GTA and PVN going on the offensive and adding even more confusion to the situation.

You've also got to add in the fact that the Shivans probably didn't have any contingency plans for what to do if the Lucifer got killed. It was invulnerable after all. Why bother to plan for its destruction.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


You've also got to add in the fact that the Shivans probably didn't have any contingency plans for what to do if the Lucifer got killed. It was invulnerable after all. Why bother to plan for its destruction.

Either that or
"Call fleet of really big ships and find a hole to hide in for 32 years until they arrive"

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
The Tech Room gives the impression that, without the Lucifer, the Shivans were uncoordinated and started to act...well, crazily. But Silent Threat seems to say otherwise, particularly in "Hellfire".

And Silent Threat is made out of Fan-made missions, so I guess sticking 100% to canon wasn't a priority. And I doubt [V] could have caught every mistake even if they were testing carefully. The more coordinated than expected shivans in ST can mearly be oversight.

I trust Fs2 techroom and it states the shivans were REALLY disorganized and acted strangely..

[aldo_14]

The campaign isn't fan-made.

Although FS2 should take precedence anyways; same source, but newer.

[comic]

No fleet is invulnerable, even the simplest fleet command knows this. I mean the shievens must have fought better races than the GTA and PVN so must know they could be beaten if not completely wiped out.

It would seem to suggest that the Lucifer was simply their command and controle ship witha all the intel and overall data on the oposing forces. Being important info not every ship would have this. And with the lucifers destruction all this intel and cordinated knowladge disapears thuis leading to local but un co-ordinated attacks as the scattered forces only know the general staratergy and do not have the detailed general info and stratergy for the whole fight.

Just as today ships captains are informed on a need to know bassis if the main C&C was taken down each captain would have his mission but only know the outlines of the grand stratergy and an intel or other key info on the enemy not specific to his mission.

This leads me to think maybe there are two or more SV classes maybe a worker/fighter and then command and so on with the Lucifer just being a comand ship. Thinking about it there is no reall evidence for a hive mind. as we see no variation in the Sv's themselves. In almosta all insect Hives each cast is destinct and different, how ever we never see high intelligence SV's or any other sub categories, even though we do meat sevearl destinct areas of their effort. Ie command, fighter, worker etc.

sorry to ramble

[KappaWing]

The campaign isn't fan-made.

I think he's talking about the single missions.