Author Topic: The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?  (Read 31427 times)

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Offline Kie99

  • 211
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Possibly, but I don't see thew Shivans really caring too much about the opinion of one man, and I don't see Bosch under any illusion that he would be. If anything he hated his crew as 'sheep'


He did bother to communicate with them. And he regarded them as 'cattle' not sheep.
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 

Offline Flipside

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The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
Sheep = Stand around in field eating grass following each other around when nervous.

Cattle = Stand around in field eating grass following each other around when nervous.

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
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The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
Cattle; safe in Aberdeen on a Friday night
Sheep; not safe in Aberdeen on a Friday night

 

Offline Flipside

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The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
:lol:

 

Offline Kie99

  • 211
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
:lol:


Siggied!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 03:34:19 pm by 1934 »
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 

Offline Charismatic

  • also known as Ephili
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The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
What if Bosch died, trying to get his men to stop shooting at the shivans, before any 'peace' was made, in which allowed supposedly, time for bosch and other men to escape on the Xports. What if Bosch never made it, and his whole lifes plan foiled in on itself?
:::PROUD VASUDAN RIGHTS SUPPORTER:::
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"IIRC Windows is not Microsoft."

"(CENSORED) Galatea send more than two (CENSORED) fighters to escort your (CENSORED) three mile long (CENSORED), STUPID (CENSORED).  (CENSORED) YOU, YOU (CENSORED)!!!"

 
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
I doubt we'll ever know, but that is considered, I believe, to be what happened to Bosch here on HLP. The Shivans were just curious. After all, Bosch could have been saying "Cheese tastes good" when he was talking with them for all he knows. They probably just said "Wtf? Well, this is interesting, let's investigate." But considering how he managed to get two transports to his ship, perhaps ETAK did work properly. But I hardly doubt we'll ever get a canon fact on what happened to him.

 

Offline Charismatic

  • also known as Ephili
  • 210
  • Pilot of the GTVA
    • EVO
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
If BOSCH was going to take such a risky move, it had to be 100% correct or atleast 88%, pritty near working right. They did capture shivans for sure and maby thats how they 'tested it' for bugs.
:::PROUD VASUDAN RIGHTS SUPPORTER:::
M E M O R I A L :: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46987.msg957350.html#new

"IIRC Windows is not Microsoft."

"(CENSORED) Galatea send more than two (CENSORED) fighters to escort your (CENSORED) three mile long (CENSORED), STUPID (CENSORED).  (CENSORED) YOU, YOU (CENSORED)!!!"

 
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
The NTF did not capture Shivans, and they had no way of "debugging" ETAK in the middle of a nebula. Their first usage of ETAK was "crude," and their second probably wasn't much better.

 

Offline Charismatic

  • also known as Ephili
  • 210
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    • EVO
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
"And bag a few shivans in the process.." < i remember some briefing saying that. GTVA captured shivans, few, but some. Hallfight, showed their first contact, but they must have eventually sedated them and captured them. Hades rebellion stopped the research of shivans and their technology, but for a tiem they did, right?
:::PROUD VASUDAN RIGHTS SUPPORTER:::
M E M O R I A L :: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46987.msg957350.html#new

"IIRC Windows is not Microsoft."

"(CENSORED) Galatea send more than two (CENSORED) fighters to escort your (CENSORED) three mile long (CENSORED), STUPID (CENSORED).  (CENSORED) YOU, YOU (CENSORED)!!!"

 
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
The GTI captured Shivans, the NTF did not, although they did recover some of the information that the GTI gathered.

 

Offline Ghost

  • 29
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The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
My theory, in conjunction with the Shivans being the Great Destroyers/Preservers... but first, put yourself in the Shivans' place. You think to yourself, "Why do we kill them?"

To paraphrase the guy who climbed Everest: "Because it is there."

It makes sense.. because they want to, you know? But eh... whatever. Only :v: has the answer...
Wh00t!? Vinyl? Is it like an I-pod 2 or something?

[/sarcasm]

-KappaWing

The Greatest Game in Existance

 

Offline Carl

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The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
the shivans are subspace's antibodies.
"Gunnery control, fry that ****er!" - nuclear1

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
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The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
They're evil. They don't need a reason.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline FireCrack

  • 210
  • meh...
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
By antibodies you mean killer-t cells?
actualy, mabye not.
"When ink and pen in hands of men Inscribe your form, bipedal P They draw an altar on which God has slaughtered all stability, no eyes could ever soak in all the places you anoint, and yet to see you all at once we only need the point. Flirting with infinity, your geometric progeny that fit inside you oh so tight with triangles that feel so right."
3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944 59230781640628620899862803482534211706...
"Your ever-constant homily says flaw is discipline, the patron saint of imperfection frees us from our sin. And if our transcendental lift shall find a final floor, then Man will know the death of God where wonder was before."

 

Offline copiae

  • 23
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
Hello,

I've just (re)finished DSF2 recently, and the cutscenes got me thinking about the storyline in fs2. I've read through this thread, and I think the general shift of the thread is about right: imo, Bosch is the key to understanding fs2's plot. All of Freespace 2 revolves around Bosch. Nearly all the cutscenes are about him, and all of the story is set in motion by Bosch and his actions, yet what happens to him remains largely unknown.

So, what do we know about Bosch?

1. He views the NTF as a means to an end. This is made quite clear in his monologues.

2. He is (relatively) well-educated. His monologues and the references that he makes show that he has some knowledge about primitive human civilisations/books.

3. The campaign implies that he has connections within the GTVA.

Thats about it, unfortunately. However, based upon these and the monologues, we can make a few educated guesses:

a. Bosch thinks that he knows something about the Shivans. Whatever it is, its something thats worth spending the majority of his life on. Also, whatever he thinks he knows, its also something that hes kept to himself.

b. Bosch has some knowledge about ancient technology.


Ok, enough groundwork. Heres my theory:

Somewhere in space, Bosch discovers something about the Shivans, something that totally blows his mind away. This tiny fact is the seed that grows in Boschs mind, and from this, he discovers an amazing amount of new information about the Shivans, either physically, or by reinterpreting existing data.

Whatever it was that he discovers, its something worth spending the majority of his life pursuing, something worth keeping secret, and something worth starting a genocidal war to cover for.


Anyway, He investigates and understands further, and, at length, discovers the Knossos device, and how to activate it. He knows that the Shivans will be on the other side, and he presumably knows how to talk to them (ETAK)... but theres a catch.  The components he needs to reactivate the Knossos device and for his ETAK project are scattered throughout the galaxy, some in Terran worlds, some in Vasudan worlds. He has no chance in hell of getting them without the GTVA noticing, so he creates a distraction... he starts the NTF, tapping into the common hatred of the times.

The plan works with amazing success, and soon, he has an army. He carefully attacks worlds so that the GTVA have no idea what it is that he is doing, gets the necessary components, builds the ETAK device, and reactivates the portal. He goes through, at a huge cost in lives, and activates the ETAK. It is only now that he can finally find out if what he has learnt is true, if it is all worth it. He hails a Shivan ship, and they respond. They also don't attack him, which is important. This indicates that they now have some reason to keep him alive, which suggests that he knows/has something that they want, which in turn suggests that they know/have something that he wants. It is possible that they keep him alive out of curiosity, but I doubt it. It seems thier standard response to anything new is to blow it up.

Anyway, he prepares everything, and boards the shivan transport. As he is leaving, it occurs to him that the crew of the Iceni knew what it is that he did and could potentially do it at any time. The risk is too great... He requests that the Shivans kill his crew off. Something happens though, that stops the shivans (the portal reactivating when the GTVA went through, perhaps?)  from finishing the job off.

Ok, I'm sleepy now, so I'll finish this off tomorrow. The rest of it is a brief discussion on the nature of language, and then some wild speculation (that is, more wild then this :)).

 

Offline Kie99

  • 211
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
:welcome:

Exits are to your right and left, and flamethrowers are under your seat. Be careful, though, as they are sometimes filled with water, so bring your own Napalm or try to club someone with the non-working shotguns in the weapon closet. Also, be careful while wandering the ventilation shafts. If you see a large, five-limbed creature that looks really pissed, it’s probably Carl, give him your lunch and he'll hopefully go away.  If you see a big desert creature its probably Raa, give him a fish and he might leave your head alone.  In the event of an emergency, the n00bs will be the last into the escape pods, if there’s any room left. The Plasma rifles in the forward locker are released only under authorization of an Admin, [V] God, or hyperintelligent shade of the color blue. Oh, and whatever you do, don't mention the word Freespace followed by the number 3.

Woah!  Good start to your HLP "career"!
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 

Offline karajorma

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The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
Welcome aboard. I think pretty much everyone agrees with what you say up until when Bosch activates ETAK. After that it's debatable but the first half is pretty much what everyone thinks happened.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline copiae

  • 23
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
Thanks guys.

Before I begin with wild speculations, I'd like to briefly discuss some very basic philosophy of language.

the ETAK project allowed one thing: The ability for Bosch to communicate with the Shivans. What it presumably did not contain, however, was knowledge on WHAT to transmit. Interpretation between languages is a very tricky business, even when there is a great deal of commonality between the two languages. I am reminded of the old scenario of an explorer meeting a tribe of primitive natives. To communicate with them, he had to start from scratch, by pointing at things and listening to what their words for those things were, and building it up from there. Once he had a basic knowledge of thier words, he could listen for common human emotions (e.g. loving food, hating predators), and very gradually, build up an understanding of the language. However, this buildup is based on experiementation, and if the tribe arent particularly friendly towards accidentally insulting thier god, for instance...

With this scenario in mind, what about the Shivans? We know that some shivans were captured in the Great War, but the GTVA never discovered that the Shivans could even talk, let alone figure out how to talk to them. And theres a good reason why: Presumably the shivans developed on worlds totally foreign to earth. How can we build the common understanding that needed to interpret between two languages, if the other group has nothing in common with us? It would most likely require an amazing amount of time, many live Shivan specimens who want to talk (and that indicates some form of truce with the Shivan empire), some way of communicating with them, and, most importantly, some degree of commonality between Shivans and Terrans/Vasudans*.


Yet, Bosch seemed to develop a fairly good grasp of the Shivan language... ETAK would after all, be useless to Bosch if all he knew was how to send the equivalent of "I slept with your mom!!!!" Rather, he had a message that he was pretty sure that the Shivans would want to hear, and the Shivans did seem interested in hearing it.


Of course, this assumes that Volition was aware of some of the more basic philosophy behind language. Anyway, thats it from me, tune in next time for my wild speculation.


*Speaking of the Vasudans, a Terran/Vasudan interpretation service is available, but we don't know how long it was worked on by both the Terran and Vasudan people. Heh, I can't remember if the cause of the war was ever stated in Freespace 1, but it could even be because of a major stuff-up by the Terran translation team ;).

 

Offline copiae

  • 23
The Shivans, Why do they do what they do?
Hi. If anyones confused, I accidently registered with the wrong nickname... so I asked a mod to change it back to what I usually use.


Anyway...I'm going to assume that Volition did NOT know about the basic philosophy of language outlined above, for the time being. If you don't like reading long posts, skip this one. Instead, read my next post. Seriously. This one is a pretty boring, conventional theory. The next one is the truly interesting one. (Of course, I'd prefer that you read both, as the second one draws on whats said here, but anyway..)


On with the boring theory. Whatever Bosch's mission was, he succeeded, at least partially. His final monologue can only be described as optimistic... He describes his attempt at communication as being "crude and rudimentary" which to my mind seems to be like "Bosch want speak to leader", rather than pure gibberish, and he talks about plans to scuttle the Iceni, and go somewhere with the Shivans. This, to me, seems like successful two way communication, not the shivans merely being curious.


After all, lets face facts here. The Shivans have not shown the least bit of curiosity towards terrans or vasudans. They have made no effort whatsoever to learn anything about us, even when we developed shields in like 5 missions flat (iirc). They simply do not care about us. In fact, the only time during any campaign when the shivans were not attacking Terrans and Vasudans was with the Iceni (and note, just the Iceni. Other NTF ships were apparently fair game). Why then, were the Shivans so chummy with Bosch in the nebula?


And what the hell did he have to gain by going there? Bosch is no fool. He must have known that he would never come back... I've just reread the monologues and I've changed my mind on one thing. Originally, I thought that Bosch was doing everything for personal gain, but now, I think that, more than anything else, he was doing it
for the sake of humanity.


Which leaves us with a new riddle. If what he knew could make such a difference, why not tell everyone, and get the GTVA's cooperation? Surely they would be just as interested in eliminating any future Shivan threat as he is. It wasnt for personal glory, as Bosch dryly notes, history will remember him as a butcher, which he seems to think is a bit unfair, but he doesnt care. No, I think that whatever Bosch discovered about the Shivans, it was something that he simply could not tell the GTVA, as it would be mocked at or discredited. So then, the question remains, what was it?


Before I attempt to answer that, lets consider the turn of events:


  • Bosch opens the Knossos portal (or, at least, capitalises on an open Knossos portal).
  • A few scattered Shivan vessels emerge from the portal, which the GTVA mop up.
  • Bosch successfully communicates with the Shivans, and plans are made for him to leave with them.
  • The GTVA goes inside the Knossos portal to investigate, and encounted basic shivan resistance, nothing special.
  • The Shivans take Bosch, and kill most of the crew of the Iceni.
  • A Sathanas class juggernaut is sighted, heading towards gamma draconis.
  • Plans are made for the Collossus to engage the Sathanas
  • The Sathanas is engaged successfully by the Collossus
  • More juggernauts are sighted headed towards gamma draconis
  • These juggernauts all converge at the Capella sun
  • The Sathanas class juggernauts do something to the sun, causing it to go supernova
  • Most of the juggernauts then jump out, but some stay, although they appear to be powered down.



Most people think that the two unexplained events are unrelated (ETAK and supernova), yet like I said above, the Knossos portal was stable, which I'm guessing happens over a long time, which indicates that the shivans could have invaded at any time (although ther terrans still needed to activate the portal again). I am going to state that whatever Bosch told the shivans specifically involved something about the sun at Capella. There is no other reason why they converged on that sun, and that sun alone (if any old sun would do, why not the one at Gamma Draconis?), and why they converged there only after Bosch met up with them.


In turn, this indicates that Bosch learnt something about the shivans in his research, something that would make them see (blowing up the) the Capella sun as being 'valuable'. Petrarch, in the end movie, speculates that they were cosmic nomads, searching for a way home, and the energy from the supernova gave them the ability to do so (although how the hell he knows this is beyond me...). If it was that simple, why not do it somewhere else, or to be precise, sometime else, like say in the 8000 years they've been stuck in our galaxy?


If we assume Petrarchs Words are the voice of Volition, (i.e. he's right)... For this to work, Bosch must have been the one who told them how to do it, otherwise they would have done it already, and gone back home. Maybe a certain type of star is required, which Capella is, but few others are, and Bosch supplied the info needed by the Shivans to go about doing it. Of course, if this is all for the sake of the Shivans going home, Bosch's talk of an alliance doesnt really make much sense, apart form perhaps an alliance inasmuch that they don't kill us off anymore.


Bosch's disdain of the Vasudans isnt really explained in this either (although he views the NTF as cattle, he does explicitly state that humanities fate does not reside with the Vasudans). Of course, this could just be a plain old-fashioned dislike of Vasudans that Bosch always had.


If, on the other hand, we consider the possilibilty that Petrarch was guessing, then a whole new range of possiblities unfold. Honestly, I'm tired right now, and there is a much more interesting theory I want to go through, so if I ever get around to writing a "Bosch manifesto" (paying homage to the Shivan manifesto here), this'll be expanded in there.


Finally, This does leave the question of the events of the Iceni. Why was there a battle? Why did the crew think that Bosch was taken? Consider this. The Iceni was of the NTF. Somehow, I doubt that thier recruitment drive went something along the lines of "Vasudans suck! Oh, and our leader reckons he can talk to Shivans". Also, remember the SOC operation within the NTF? No-one had a clue about what Bosch was working on. This leads me to suggest that the crew had -no- idea about what was going on, for the most part. I'm guessing that when the Shivans did board, the bulk of the crew freaked out something fierce. Maybe they were reluctant to go with Bosch, or thought that Bosch was under some form of mind control, or something. Maybe then, Bosch boarded the transports, and the shivans began 'scuttling' the Iceni by killing everyone on it, only to be repelled, or, more likely, disrupted by something, maybe the presence of GTVA ships in the area.

Or maybe the crew knew everything, but refused to board the shuttle, to which the shivans reacted with violence, and the crew reacted with further violence. Bosch eventually managed to stop the shivans and leave, but not before there were heavy casulties.

Anyway, this is about it for me, except for (most likely) my final post on the matter, which is the actual completely wild speculation.