[Whitelight]

Most people see and think of hell as fire and brimstone..

This is a misinterpatation, as a matter of fact its a vas void and complete darkness, and all you can hear are the cries of the damned.

[Ford Prefect]

That sounds more like life, to me.

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
OK, so what about Jews? They worship the same God, but not the complete, christian God, since they reject Christ. Firey pits of damnation for them too? Or Muslims? Again, same god, but they follow a different prophet. Long time burnies?

Jews are actually a special case in a couple of ways, but I'll address your question first. I'm going to assume that you mean Jews in terms of religion (Judaism) - not Jews in terms of nationality (who are free to follow Judaism, Christianity, or whatever they like).

Again, the Christian question would be: have they sought God's grace as the basis for their relationship with him? If indeed they reject Christ, then this translates to a rejection of the ultimate offer of forgiveness that God has extended. Despite identifying with the same God, they do not seek the grace that is the only means by which they can be forgiven and enter into relationship with God.

With regard to Islam, the question is the same. Have they sought Allah's grace as the basis for their relationship with him? In my study of Islam, I've found they have a well-articulated theology of Allah's mercy in forgiving those he chooses. However, it is a very different concept of mercy, for it is earned - which is the reason for the strict adherence of Muslims to the laws set out for prayer and conduct in the Qu'ran. Christians also adhere to the instructions of the Bible, but not as a basis for their salvation; in Islam, there is no true grace. On this understanding, they too reject God's grace, which is the only way for them to be in relationship with him.

[Whitelight]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
That sounds more like life, to me.

Ah yes, if only I could count the times i`ve heard this.

Life is what you make of it, nothing more, nothing less.

(edit) thats strange, your reply is above my post ..  

[Ford Prefect]

Ah yes, if only I could count the times i`ve heard this.

Life is what you make of it, nothing more, nothing less.

Oh, I don't really think my life is bad at all. You'll have to excuse me. I believe in very little and laugh at most things.

[Rictor]

Quick question: if accepting God and asking forgiveness are the sole criteria for entering Heaven and being saved, what prevents people from living a horrible life, and simply repenting on their death bed? Likewise, what reason is there for living a good life, if it has no bearing on your ultimate fate? I mean good life in relation to others, like helping the weak, giving to charity etc, not in relation to your inner spiritual life.

[phatosealpha]

Anyone ever read a piece called "Non Serviam" by Stanisem Lem?  I seem to remember it being an excellent summation of my thoughts on the matter.

[Grug]

The song "always look on the bright side of life" jumps into my mind...

[Whitelight]

Originally posted by Rictor
Quick question: if accepting God and asking forgiveness are the sole criteria for entering Heaven and being saved, what prevents people from living a horrible life, and simply repenting on their death bed? Likewise, what reason is there for living a good life, if it has no bearing on your ultimate fate? I mean good life in relation to others, like helping the weak, giving to charity etc, not in relation to your inner spiritual life.

Its not that easy, the good must outweight the bad, meaning it would take a life time to correct. I don`t think that would get them into heaven.

[Grug]

According to catholic religeon you can.

[Flipside]

It seems to me though that, in Genesis, God didn't intend for mankind to Multiply at first, we were supposed to simply be Adam and Eve, God's Avatara, as it were, it was the Apple of Knowledge that bought them the idea of their own sexuality?

[KappaWing]

Quick question: if accepting God and asking forgiveness are the sole criteria for entering Heaven and being saved, what prevents people from living a horrible life, and simply repenting on their death bed? Likewise, what reason is there for living a good life, if it has no bearing on your ultimate fate? I mean good life in relation to others, like helping the weak, giving to charity etc, not in relation to your inner spiritual life.

I think that taking advantage of god's grace in that manner (repenting just before your death so you would get saved) is sort of dishonest to god. So logically, you'll probably go to hell either way.

But I'm an atheist so it's just my opinion.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Whitelight
Most people see and think of hell as fire and brimstone..

This is a misinterpatation, as a matter of fact its a vas void and complete darkness, and all you can hear are the cries of the damned.

Man, that would be a step up.

I actually have to do things for the damned when they start to cry in this world. At least I can sit and laze out in hell.

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Rictor
Quick question: if accepting God and asking forgiveness are the sole criteria for entering Heaven and being saved, what prevents people from living a horrible life, and simply repenting on their death bed? Likewise, what reason is there for living a good life, if it has no bearing on your ultimate fate? I mean good life in relation to others, like helping the weak, giving to charity etc, not in relation to your inner spiritual life.

Okay, I'm going to continue to answer from the Christian viewpoint. So far, we've been dealing with a fairly simple perspective: the image is of being right/wrong in relation to God, and thus being forgiven/not forgiven.

However, in Christianity, being forgiven is not all that happens to you. When you come to God and ask him for forgiveness, God forgives you but also changes who you are. In fact, you begin to become like Christ himself - so we are forgiven, but also on the inside we are different. We begin to take on the character and behaviour of God himself.

So to answer your question at face value: there is nothing stopping you. One of the only people who we knew was right with God was a terrible criminal, hanging on a cross alongside Jesus - he didn't even the luxury of a death bed. But he asked God for forgiveness and trusted in God's grace rather than in his own goodness (the lack of which was pretty obvious at that point), and so he was right with God.

What reason is there for living a 'good life'? Well, I'll give you a more concrete example than that hypothetical situation. Take me. I asked exactly the same question you did - why bother, if I'm already 'going to Heaven'? But the point in what I was saying earlier was that, if I was indeed forgiven by God and in relationship with him, then on the inside I'm a different person.

So you see, it's not so much a question of "I have to do this to go to Heaven", but more like "Hey, I'm different now - how can I live the way I used to?". To give a crude illustration, if I was a fish who had just evolved into a land creature, why would I go back to swim in the ocean? I'm new now, so I ought to live in a new way that's appropriate for me.

Therefore, the reason that I help the weak and give to charity is not because I need to do that to be saved, but because this is my new identity now - the Bible says that when God forgives people, his aim is to "purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good".

[icespeed]

i've always thought that when we try to discuss stuff, we should define stuff first, so we're discussing the same stuff. so firstly, when Christians say 'sin', generally they mean rejection of God rather than the actual murder, adultery, etc. sure, the _acts_ are sin, but only because they are the result of rejecting God.

so when you reject your ruler and creator (of course if you don't believe God created the world and you, you have a bit of a problem seeing the relevance of this point) your ruler and creater has every right to destroy you, or to cast you aside. kinda like if i made a pot, and the pot decides to leak all the soup i try to put in it, i have the right to go smash that pot good.

that's the basic premise behind Christian hell (hah, what an oxymoron). in which case, since the premise is that all humans reject God, and all humans deserve hell, the fact that God chooses some humans to be saved to go to heaven/paradise/whatever you want to call it is not unfair. it's like me making millions of pots, all of which _choose_ to leak soup, but i decide to keep some of them and patch up the leaks and make them into entirely better pots to hold really really good soup.

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Flipside
It seems to me though that, in Genesis, God didn't intend for mankind to Multiply at first, we were supposed to simply be Adam and Eve, God's Avatara, as it were, it was the Apple of Knowledge that bought them the idea of their own sexuality?

Mind if I correct that with a quote from the end of the first chapter in Genesis?

[q]So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
[/q]

God created mankind, with the full intention for them to multiply and to be the rulers over the world. Sexuality was God's good invention from the very start.

[Grug]

What flavoured soup?

@Setekh - I agree with you on the 'eager to do good part', but I believe we shouldn't need the bible to do so. It contains of red tape etc.

But being a good person is fundamentally what life should be about...

[Setekh]

You see Grug, this is where we differ. Christianity says that without God (and without his word to us, the Bible), we simply cannot be 'good'. The default position of mankind is steeped in failure - being a good person is simply no longer an option.

[Grug]

Indeed it is where we differ.

I like to have more hope in humanity than in a supposed God, though at times I am dreadfully sorrowed by it.
I think in the long run, disputes between Religous groups have caused more trouble for humanity than good.

[icespeed]

ummm... grug, you prefer to hope in humanity... well, consider that for most of human history, God has left us alone, and we haven't exactly distinguished ourselves as citizens of peace, love and goodwill. in fact, it's often been saints of various religions, rather than atheists, agnostics, and so on, who've been the 'good' people. religion's usually an excuse for disputes rather than the sole cause. humans like to argue, whatever the subject.

the flavour of the soup depends on the pot. but rest assured that its _good_ soup.