[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Sandwich


"Oh, honey.... I'm pregnant!"

"Sweetheart, that's incredible! Boy or girl, do you know?"

"Neither, silly - it's not a human yet!"

Yeah.

ah... the problems of reducing a sentence and having something... how do you call it in english... sub-entendido?

"Boy or girl, do you know?"
this is the same as
"Is it a boy or a girl?"
which in turn is further amplified to the final original form of
"Is it going to be a boy or a girl?"

[KappaWing]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Exactly my point - you think that a baby in the womb doesn't react to pain if exposed to it? There's no magical "turn on pain receptors" switch during childbirth.

Incorrect. As a zygote, a baby obviously cannot feel. It has no nerves, it has no brain. It is merely a sperm burrowed into an egg. Fast forward a few weeks to a partially developed baby. Still no feeling... Somewhere between there and a fully developed baby, the 'switch' you refer to has to flick on.

[Annorax]

Will someone send that poor kid a coathanger already?

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Maybe you should have some respect for the people who take actions you disagree with, first.  you're making a massive sweeping generalization about the motivations and thought processes of these women, using the result to insult them, and then claiming moral high ground.

Responsibility is facing the situation they are in, and making a decision based upon it.  Just because you don't like the decision, you can't write it - and them - off.  They make the decision, they face the consequences, and that's what I define as taking responsibility.

I respect your opinion.  I don't respect you regarding & effectively describing women who take this incredibly ****ing tough decision  - arguably tougher than any of us will make in our lives - as some kind of emotionless 2-bit whore.  And yeah, maybe some very few are.  But not all.

And I'm sorry if that sounds pissed off, but that's how I feel.

Let me put it this way. You forge a few thousand dollars/pounds/whatevers, fully aware that you might be found out, and would then have to take responsibility for your actions. A few weeks go by, and then you're found out and brought before a court. How is it conceivable then that you would be able to say to the court, "Just give me the money back and I'll burn the bills, no harm done"?? Is that "taking responsibility"? It's taking the "easy", irresponsible way out.

The analogy isn't perfect, mind you, but I trust it helps you see why I see this issue the way I do.

Now I'm going to bed.

[Hippo]

Originally posted by Annorax
Will someone send that poor kid a coathanger already?

Why? To hang a coat on?

[vyper]

Actually it helps show how poorly you understand the situation. The woman having an abortion isn't just saying "oh, I can get another one - let's just get rid of this thing". Most women go through a whole storm of emotions when they are faced with a decision like this and know full well what they are doing - and show incredible emotional strength to pull through.

You seem to think by being flippant and glib in your analogies and comparisons that you somehow prove these women are somehow amoral cowards of some sort - instead you make yourself sound like an insensitive single minded son of a ***** who might know something about war, but knows nothing about real life or the consequences for a woman being forced to carry a child she doesn't want.

[vyper]

Originally posted by Hippo




Why? To hang a coat on?

She'll need to put her coat somewhere when she watches her life get ruined I guess.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Let me put it this way. You forge a few thousand dollars/pounds/whatevers, fully aware that you might be found out, and would then have to take responsibility for your actions. A few weeks go by, and then you're found out and brought before a court. How is it conceivable then that you would be able to say to the court, "Just give me the money back and I'll burn the bills, no harm done"?? Is that "taking responsibility"? It's taking the "easy", irresponsible way out.

The analogy isn't perfect, mind you, but I trust it helps you see why I see this issue the way I do.

Now I'm going to bed.

I don't view that as a valid analogy; I view it as artificially reducing one side to be simpler than it is, to be 'cost free' to the person, to make it look to be the wrong one.  The entire concept of the 'easy' way isn't valid.  It's what is the best way, what is the right way.  That's a personal choice, made based on personal circumstances, I would never seek to take that away.  

And I believe that describing it as the 'easy way' is just the easy way out of addressing different views, a trivialization to make arguements easier via lazy characterisation.  I don't think any of us - male at least and especialy - have any right or ability to dictate what the 'easy way' is.

If someone can ever define life, write it down on paper without any reasonable scientific dissent, and then say 'it happens here', then I'll support the banning of abortion after that point, even if that point turns out to be at conception itself.  

But only if and when it's proven; I would not force my beliefs of when that time is upon others, nor would I accept the forcing of others beliefs of that upon me.  And because this is a question of that belief, that is why I always true and choose to decide based upon what is unequivocal, what isn't already prejudged and assumed by either myself or others.

[Getter Robo G]

All I can say (or will say) is BLAME THE PARENTS!'

OPS,, in this case that would mean FLORIDA....

Yet another shining example of how well Florida's Department of Children are taking care of their precious charges (vomits)...

IF I was Jeb Bush I would be VERY VERY VERY f'ing embarressed (one cause of this story, and two for being a Bush)..

Nuff said... (and you guys know I only post a political statement like once a year)...

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by aldo_14
But only if and when it's proven; I would not force my beliefs of when that time is upon others, nor would I accept the forcing of others beliefs of that upon me.

And I suppose the fetus doesn't appreciate other people forcing on it the belief that it isn't alive.

You argue that the fetus isn't alive?  Fine, prove it.  You argue that the fetus is alive?  Fine, prove it (as some people have, to the satisfaction of some but not others).  You say you don't know?  Then the only moral and ethical option is to assume the fetus is alive and act accordingly.

[EtherShock]

Jeez, where do I start?

If this turns into another Terry Schiavo, I'm going to bust some TV's.

"Neither, silly - it's not a human yet!"

Everyone has their own beliefs as to when a baby is human/sentient. However, I have one thing to say about this--OK, two things. Back in high school, I remember seeing in my biology book pictures of a human fetus and a few animals fetuses side-by-side. They all looked very similar, so I agree with that statement. Second, I don't believe the baby has a soul until it is born, but that's just my beliefs. You can believe whatever you want.

I firmly believe the state has no right to decide whether even a 13-year-old can or cannot have an abortion, as it is her body. I wouldn't like being unable to control my body. No one is forcing her to get an abortion, but she is being forced to have a child now. Not every person is the same, she could be more mature than the average person her age, not necessarily true but possible. Not everyone is watching Pokemon or Ninja Turtles. Generalizing all young people as being immature is ignorant.

She'll need to put her coat somewhere when she watches her life get ruined I guess.

Back in the day when abortions were illegal, women used to perform them on themselves with coat hangers, a very dangerous method.

Also, this thread is in serious need of
.
This thread has had total communication breakdown. You guys aren't arguing. You're just telling each other that your way is better and making personal attacks as well now. Stop talking out of your asses and attempt to prove your statements! Oh, and listen too!

Grr, I don't have the keys to the plasma rifle locker. Where's an admin or that hyperintelligent cloud when you need it.

By the way admin, I recommend we have pics like this for threads.

That's it, I'm done.

*Drops a plasma grenade and leaves*

[redmenace]

well frankly this thread has gone better than some others concerning this very topic

[karajorma]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that many of the people claiming that at the age of 13 she is incapable of choosing to have an abortion are the same people who would claim that at 13 she could be tried as an adult had she committed a crime and sentenced to death?

To be honest I'd agree that at 13 she is very young to have an abortion. What she needs is some councilling from a neutral party who will help her choose the best route for her.

Unfortunately there is no way you could possibly do that because the anti-abortionists would all jump in and try to get these councilling positions so that they could push their agenda on the poor children in this situation.

Which basically means that incapable of deciding or not it's up to her to make the choice either on her own or after talking to whichever adults she chooses to trust.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Goober5000
And I suppose the fetus doesn't appreciate other people forcing on it the belief that it isn't alive.

You argue that the fetus isn't alive?  Fine, prove it.  You argue that the fetus is alive?  Fine, prove it (as some people have, to the satisfaction of some but not others).  You say you don't know?  Then the only moral and ethical option is to assume the fetus is alive and act accordingly.

That's your definition of the 'only moral and ethical option', based upon your presupposition/s.  Again, all I ask is (for myself and others) to have the freedom to make my own decision towards that.

And, incidentally, proof has to be complete, unequivocal and unquestionable for it to be fairly applied to everyone.  So long as legitimate, factual dissent exists, it's simply a theory.

[Swamp_Thing]

I say leave the decision up to the women. After all, what right do we men have to decide what they should or should not do with their bodies? Sure there´s the moral consideration, but alas the woman´s desires, fears, and possible complications of carrying out a pregnancy are always neglected.
It´s easy for a man to say "she´s a coward, she´s killing a living being", but how many men would be willing to suffer in their own flesh the pains of giving birth?
I say make a referendum, and only women get to vote.

Finally, this girl is way too young for anything. I doubt her body is even prepared to carry out the pregnancy to good term. Yet i don´t see anyone worried that baring a child this young might kill her in the process. Many people defending the rights of the fetus, but no one defends the girl´s right to live...
Not to mention that having a baby this young means virtually that she will have to drop out of school, raise a bastard child (that might grow to be deficient), get ostracised by society as a single mother, loose her chance to live a normal childhood, etc etc.
No one seems to care about that...
.

[vyper]

[q]Back in the day when abortions were illegal, women used to perform them on themselves with coat hangers, a very dangerous method.[/q]

*sighs* Yes I know I was being sarcastic.

[Flipside]

Ok, how many people on here have actually had to deal with an unwanted pregnancy? How many people here have found out their partner is pregnant and they have no room, no money and their future prospects are too uncertain to be able to ensure that child the life it deserves, and that having it means that everyone, you, your partner, and the child, will suffer for year after year after year, where eviction or starvation is a real possibility?

Just interested.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Goober5000
You argue that the fetus isn't alive?  Fine, prove it.  You argue that the fetus is alive?  Fine, prove it (as some people have, to the satisfaction of some but not others).  You say you don't know?  Then the only moral and ethical option is to assume the fetus is alive and act accordingly.

Fine prove to me that plants can't feel pain. And if you can't then institute measures to make sure that all trees are doped up before being chopped down. After all it can't be ethical to take a saw to one and take minutes to bring one down without knowing for certain it doesn't feel pain.

Sometimes you can't prove something and just have to take your best guess.

[Liberator]

This is a depressing situation.  And there will be a firestorm.  I'm just not in the mood to pull the trigger on the fuel-air bomb just yet.

This is a more frightening concept:

Originally posted by KappaWing
A jugde's duty is to inforce the law...

A judge's only power is to hear a case and decide guilt based on existing law.

They cannot enforce the law, nor make new law.  It is not in their purview.

In the USA, only the Legislative branch can make law.  The Executive can suggest law, but it still falls to the Legislative branch to see it become law.  The Judicial branch's sole duty is to see that law carried out.  

There are far too many judges that are using Precedent to make law and far, far too many people who are willing to let them.

[KappaWing]

To enforce the law is the same thing as to ensure that law is carried out, right?