[Clave]

It's the beginning of the end...

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by WeatherOp
it's funny seeing people buy stuff that ain't and never will be real.

You mean, people paying money for intangible goods!? Gasp! THAT's never happened before! Certainly not for thousands of years of human history!

[vyper]

*puts on medieval monk's hat*

Prayers for sale... go to heaven for three castles...

[Swamp_Thing]

Was it a good sword at least? I´d hate to see him do it over some rusty dagger...


[/extreme sarcasm]

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by WeatherOp
it's funny seeing people buy stuff that ain't and never will be real.

Like video games, movies, and technical dossiers about imaginary board game items?

[Flipside]

LOL I might get narked at Ore Thieves in Eve, but that's taking things just an eeeensy bit too far

[BlackDove]

For £500?

I'd probably waste someone too if they stole that amount from me.

[Flipside]

Well, the 500 was for a virtual online sword, that's really more of a case of someone being stupid enough to pay money for a pretend weapon, it's not even as if the Sword 'as is' is the IP of anyone but the game designers anyway, so it wasn't strictly his possesion to get murderous about in the first place.

[BlackDove]

Just saying.

I mean in context:

a) I wouldn't be stupid enough to give or "borrow" someone £500 in any kind of a "game", be it online or offline. Hell I wouldn't bring £500 to any kind of a game/venue. If I had it as a sword, and I knew it was worth that much, I'd keep it glued to my character, and well.....if the game ****s up, devs' fault, not mine, I had it coming, and I didn't invest £500 into it.

b) If I was stupid enough, I'd have it coming, so it was essentially my fault

Personally I don't agree that "Game developers own items so they're theirs and not the players possession" and any of the pre-MMO similar phrases, because we all know eBay exists, and we all know what people do over such websites/forums. The only time those phrases are true, is when the devs somehow screw up, then you can say "They have the right to screw up, because it's their game, and you're there to play by their rules, because you signed the EULA". But a Player to Game Developer relationship is completely different from a Player to Player relationship. I know they try to make it the same with rules etc. but it's just not happening.


But the fact remains, if someone stole £500 from me, chances are they would be broken for the rest of their natural life, if not dead. £500 is a lot of money for me.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Flipside
Well, the 500 was for a virtual online sword, that's really more of a case of someone being stupid enough to pay money for a pretend weapon, it's not even as if the Sword 'as is' is the IP of anyone but the game designers anyway, so it wasn't strictly his possesion to get murderous about in the first place.

*Goes round to Flip's house to steal all his CDs*


To be honest I'm seeing this a different way from everyone else. While nothing justifies killing someone for this sort of thing I see absolutely nothing new about this in the slightest. Strip away the fact that it was a virtual possession and you've got an age old story.

A is friends with B. A lends B a prized possession. B sells prized possession for his own gain. A gets pissed off and kills B.

I'm sure quite a large reason why B got stabbed is cause A felt betrayed by a friend. I'm sure we all have real possessions of little to no intrisic value which we would get hugely pissed off about if someone broke or sold off.

I find it ironic to compare the comments on this thread with the ones here.

[Unknown Target]

*laughs at stupid asian nerds*

[Flipside]

LOL But CD's are a physical item, the content of the may be someones IP, and I don't blame the bloke for getting annoyed about it, but it's like people selling Eve characters and stuff on Ebay, stuff which you can pick up for Eve's imaginary money in-game if you are willing to play for long enough, same as in this game. It takes a real moron to dish out real money for it when a few months of playing the game, which they are obviously involved in, would yield it for the price of the monthly fee, which they are paying anyway.

It's not like stealing a digital manuscript or the like unless I'm playing Real Life (c) and am skilling up in Writing Level 5

Yes, it was illegal what was done, and bloody annoying when it happens, I've encountered ore thieves etc in Eve, who exploit the in-game security rules to steal stuff whilst all you can do is stand by and watch, but all I did was mine directly to my cargo bay from then on, theres no point chewing it over.

[karajorma]

Thing is that this is slightly different unless you actually know the ore thieves who are stealing from you.

As I said I'm sure he was pissed off at losing his stuff but no doubt what really got him was that a friend did it to him. After all it appears that he knew this guy well enough to be in a position to kill him. How many people on Eve can you say that about?

As for the CD's being physical what's that got to do with anything? Notice the link to the I-pod story? mp3s aren't physical either but everyone understood what she'd done and most people agreed that though killing the guy was a step too far the guy did deserve to pay for what he did. Would you just say "Oh well my i-Tunes are virtual" if I came round to your place and formated your i-pod?

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Unknown Target


Like video games, movies, and technical dossiers about imaginary board game items?

Or brand new Windows XP folders.

[Flipside]

Originally posted by karajorma
Thing is that this is slightly different unless you actually know the ore thieves who are stealing from you.

As I said I'm sure he was pissed off at losing his stuff but no doubt what really got him was that a friend did it to him. After all it appears that he knew this guy well enough to be in a position to kill him. How many people on Eve can you say that about?

As for the CD's being physical what's that got to do with anything? Notice the link to the I-pod story? mp3s aren't physical either but everyone understood what she'd done and most people agreed that though killing the guy was a step too far the guy did deserve to pay for what he did. Would you just say "Oh well my i-Tunes are virtual" if I came round to your place and formated your i-pod?

Oh, I'm not saying that what he did was right or ok, the general point I'm making is that anyone stupid enough to take an online game seriously is a moron. It was morons paying real money for imaginary stuff that created this situation. And as far as the I-pod thing is concerned, you have to ask where the tunes came from orginally, were they illegally downloaded, or copied from purchased CDs? If they were from purchased CDs then no biggy, you still have the originals, it's a bit of work, but no permanent damage done, so I can only assume that this represented the loss of a great many hours of downloading. If the original CD's are in the womans possesion and undamaged then this is simply an act of petty vandalism.

Take, for example, an estranged wife who cuts up her husbands clothes, or sells them at a jumble sale etc, in that case something tangible has been destroyed or sold for profit. In that case, under law, the Husband should be entitled to refund.

Now take, for example, an author who creates a story only to have it stolen, once again, entitled to compensation.

Now, this current situation is something new. It is an object created by a third party, effectively being used under lease from the game developers that the victim had borrowed and then sold. If anyone had an issue with the Victim, it should have been the Game designers for someone making profit from what is essentially their creation, sort of like IP theft. What stings is the many hours spent by the player acquiring it, but the item was never ever 'truly' his property to be stolen from him.

What should be stamped on is the ability to sell this stuff for cash in the first place.

[Grug]

Originally posted by Setekh
It's horrific, but with this world heading off the rails, I think I expected it.

I hardly think the world is that bad Setekh. Its one incident. Out of potentially billions.
The majority of people are sensible. I hope...

Rofl @ Flipside.
Yeah that punk still had the nerve to take the stuff with two heavily armed ships orbiting him.

Funny how the Bounty and Merc systems work out for the good side though.

[Flipside]

I was originally thinking about following from system to system being a little personal 'Ore thief' fanfare, but I decided that would be petty, and after reading this thread, I certainly don't think I'll bother

[WMCoolmon]

You know, I see this whole situation as about as valid as the RIAA lawsuits of late. The only difference is that one is legislated, and the other isn't (minus killing the guy - although I wonder how many people's lives have been destroyed by RIAA lawsuits).

I don't see any sort of rationalization that makes the sword any different from a music CD. The guy probably went to a lot of hard work to get the sword (provided a service) , thereby obtaining the liberty to have the sword, then lent it to his friend. His friend took advantage of the hard work and - without paying the first guy for his time - sold the CD, I mean, the sword.

In fact, I would say a greater injustice was done to the guy who bought the sword than the damage done to record companies by Kazaa or Bittorrrent or whatever; he actually lost the use of the sword, not just profits.

The sad thing is that everyone has gotten so uppity about "intellectual property" that such a comparison is even possible. Ideas used solely for entertainment and profit are, in some cases, considered by the law to be more important than the life of a person - possibly even the person who created the ideas in the first place.

[Flipside]

But he can only use the sword in a game which has been created by the game designers. He was not providing a service, he was hiring one, of which the sword was part. It's not a question of IP, what took place WAS theft, I don't deny that, since the profit was made from the other persons hard work, taking something that isn't yours is theft, no matter what it is. But what, exactly did he buy the sword with? Was this currency capable, for example, of buying real life food or shelter? When you steal a CD, for example, the cash value of the CD is interchangeable, you can buy stuff in real life with the money, the currency used by the 'murderer' was earned from paying a monthly fee to a game studio. The whole thing is a distraction, a game, take it too seriously and you start to blur your concept of reality. So yes, the selling for 500 quid in 'real life' was a crime, but if people become so dependant on an 'alternate reality' that they hire that they are willing to kill over it, then that sends warning bells ringing.

The murder is something completely different, you can get murdered for looking at someone 'funny'.

[WMCoolmon]

Apparently, the sword was worth something, and it sounds like it was far more valuable than a CD. Say I go into an arcade, play some of the games, and get 500 tickets, which I then use to buy a CD. Then I go home, copy the CD, make a bunch of copies and give them to my friends. It's considered the same as if I'd bought it at a local CD place with federal currency and I would almost certainly receive the same sentence for copying the CDs as if I'd purchased it with federal currency.

However, if I tried to buy food or clothing or shelter with those same tickets, I'd be rejected - the only place they'd be good would be in the arcade.

The CD doesn't have any intrinsic worth, though. Some people simply wouldn't like the music on it; others might find it immoral; others might not have the equipment, ie a CD player, to use it and would be more interested in its aesthetic value. Still others might not have access to that CD, and be willing to pay double or even triple the price that you could buy it for.