[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
Well, the proof is in the pudding. Notice how this isn't a problem in countries where "enlightened parenting" is not practiced, which at last count includes most of the world. I've talked about precisely this with friends from Greece, Iran, Macedonia, Russia etc, and the consensus seems to be that it's perfectly acceptable to establish adults as an authority figure, and basically let the kid know who's boss.

And when you're dealing with a 5 year old, I honestly believe that they learn the same way a dog would learn, positive and negative reinforcement. Maybe it's some other characteristic of Western societies that produces negative traits in kids as a result of discipline, but you have to realize that young children (younger than around 10) don't behave or think rationally. Reasoning doesn't work. So in order that they learn basic respect, a hierarchal order must be present (eg we're not all equals). In no way do I condone taking this to the extreme, and intentionally abusing your kids (mentally or physically) due to the adult's superior strenght and intellect, but a healthy amount of discipline does wonders.

Then how do you know they aren't going to equate violence with 'good' things, if they don't think rationally?  Children do learn from their parents, after all.

I'm not sure how many studies on corporal punishment have been done; I have read that there has been an indication of it leading to depression in later life (due to the suppressed anxiety of having a lack of control against the stronger adult), that a 1986-90 study (by the University of New Hampshire) in the Us found that physically disciplined 3-5 year olds were more likely to display antisocial behaviour 2-4 years later (hitting siblings, classmates, ignoring parental rules) and that physically disciplined children were more likely to score below-average in IQ tests.  

A further, more recent study (lat year) by the University of Michigan also drew the conclusion that physical punishment increased incidences of anti-social behaviour (http://www.umich.edu/news/?Releases/2004/Sep04/r090804).

The NSPCC (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) holds the same view; I don't have a link to a study, but I have seen an NSPCC presentation that states;
- anticipation of violence can affect brain development
- smacked toddlers are 5x less compliant
- smacked 6-year olds are 6x less obidient at school
-  smacked pre-teens are more likely to get in trouble in later life

Children are protected by law from physical punishment in the following countries: Austria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Israel, Iceland, Latvia, Norway and Sweden.  I wouldn't mind the opinion of people from there on whether anti-social behaviour (in the sense of crime, etc) is a problem there which they equate to a lack of physical discipline.

[EtherShock]

I am a very antisocial person.  I got into fights with my brothers constantly; I was picked on in school daily and got into fights frequently; I pissed off teachers; I had no friends; I pay the price of being an antisocial "adult." Although, I'm not necessarily a product of violent discipline (as in smacking and beating). My dad was the authoritarian. I was spanked and he would occasionally hold me upside-down by the legs. I wouldn't put all the blame on that though (see above for other factors). My mom had non-physical ways of discipline. Violence is not the answer, period. One does not earn respect through fear. A wise person once said, "Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering."

I doubt this all has to do with genetics. That's just an excuse for those looking for an easy explanation. It's caused by a multitude of factors and the only solution is early intervention in a variety of ways (therapy, improving quality of life, etc.). If that doesn't work, then maybe you can blame the genes. Instead they just continue to cram pills down your throats and &^%@ us up even more! I have heard countless stories from people about how the drugs screw with the minds and bodies and compound the problems or do nothing. Many refuse to use drugs (inlcuding me) for that reason.

[Swamp_Thing]

There are better ways to punish your child for misbehaving. Like cutting down on their TV time, no computer, ground them, all of wich do not involve any kind of violence towards the infant.
Violence is the discipline method of choice of lowsy parents. And it begets more violence in turn. Kids who suffer physical abuse will themselfs likely become abusers in the future.

[Nuke]

i think ritilins been phased out in favor of newer pills which suposidly have fewer side effects. what i dont understand is why you want to give hyper children speed. if your kids are hyper, give them some chores or enrol them in sports. might as well use that excess energy for something.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Nuke
i think ritilins been phased out in favor of newer pills which suposidly have fewer side effects. what i dont understand is why you want to give hyper children speed. if your kids are hyper, give them some chores or enrol them in sports. might as well use that excess energy for something.

The reason for giving a stimulant is to stimulate the areas of the brain responsible for focus, attention, and impulse control. The active ingredient in Ritalin is Methylphenidate (MPH), is an amphetamine-a-like also used to treat narcolepsy.

[Bobboau]

ok, I think a good way to solve this disciplen debate is with a good'ole comparitive study.

asshat% in nations that never backhanded there kids when they were out of line 0.0% (no such nation exsists)

asshat% in nations that stoped backhanding there kids 98.68%

asshat% in nations were if you screwup you get a woop'n 8.43%

HHhhhmmmmmmmm.......

(*numbers were provided by my ass*)

but you get the point, kids in all major western nations are fucking dickheaded assholes

oh, yeah..
"there is no current standard test for it"
what great fucking kind of science is that?
your saying that I can get a kid show him to one doctor and have him diagnosed with ADD, then right after that take him to another doctor and giveing the same sorts of reponces be told he's perfictly normal?!
so assumeing that ADD is a real disiese, we not only have childeren being diagnosed with it and treated for something they don't have but also kids who have it but are not getting treatment? can you see how people could have a problem with this!?

[WMCoolmon]

Originally posted by Bobboau
ok, well what if anti-socal (however you want to define that) behavior is genetic?
if you have evedence you can't just ignore it because you don't like it.

What if it is? The thing about the brain is that it can adapt itself to new or changing conditions. AFAIK after childhood the brain stops developing at a significant rate, but usually you can still learn afterwards. Unless something is totally unconscious or voluntary, you can change your actions. And as socialness is almost totally based on the way others perceive you, which is in turn based on your actions, you can affect how social you are by learning and correcting behaviors. (eg walk up to and talk to women instead of running away shouting about cooties )

I don't think society is really ready (or mature enough) to genetically select people's personality attributes.

Making judgements about how a person will turn out later in life, based on their genetics, seems very similar to basing someone's career abilities on sex or race.

And personally, I don't think physical abuse is the answer to good parenting. It just shows the kid that the person bigger and stronger than them has more power, if you're successful. I think Robert Heinlein may have had a point when he pointed out the disparity of punishments given to adults and children. The problem is that nowadays you can be thrown in jail and fined several thousand dollars for doing harm to nobody. How would that teach someone common sense? (Well, I guess if the kid was brilliant, they'd figure out that by hiring a bunch of lobbyists they could take other people's money for nothing)

Of course I'm rather sour on the whole parenting thing. It seems like socially accepted brainwashing to me (Since kids are basically their parents' property.) OTOH I have yet to pull out a complete method for training a kid out of my ass.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Since kids are basically their parents' property.

So you're saying a 5 year old knows whats best for them?(*note* not the same as making them happy)

[Kosh]

so assumeing that ADD is a real disiese,

It's more real than you imagine.


Mis-diagnosis can happen. The problem is that it is so hard to spot at such a young age. That fact that no two minds are identical only makes it harder.

[WMCoolmon]

So you're saying a 5 year old knows whats best for them?(*note* not the same as making them happy)

No.

[Rictor]

what Bob said.

Basically my answer is: I can only guess at how or why, I'm not a expert on the subject, but the simple fact is that most of the world doesn't have a problem with their kids acting like bastards, and they're not pumping them full of Ritalin or abusing them either.

There is a difference between abuse and normal, healthy discipline. And according to my experience, the kids who's parents weren't afraid to lay down the law usually thank their parents for it later on in life.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Kosh
It's more real than you imagine.

yeah, aparently I ha(ve/d) it.

my point was more to the subjective nature of the diagnosis, you can prety much say any kid has it.
and didn't someone just lecture me about how just because you have a physiological predisposition for something it's no excuse to let it rule your life?

look, I got a bottle of the shit less than ten feet away from me, I was put into 'special' classes when I was in grade school, I got nothing but worse untill I got out of public schools, I've got a hell of a lot more experience with this shit than I think you realise. so I guess the way I think is a disese, yes I need to be cured, I can't spell I can't do arithmatic, but if you want me to integrate a four dimentional spherical expantion or design some sort of procedural geometry or memory manager, peice of cake. this is an abnormality, something I need to be cured of aparently.

[FireCrack]

^story of my life.

[Nuke]

so exactly how many people here were ritilin heads as kids, show of hands
*raises hand*

add shouldnt be cured any more than homosexuallity. its a trait that can be used for good or can lead one to destruction. its no different than agression which can be used to bully or in can become a quality for leadership. the problem is with the parents inability to cope with a child's abundant energy. perhaps the parents should take the ritalin, then perhaps they could keep up. its the responsibility of parents to channel their childrens hyperness or find ways to hold their attention. its a sad thing that its become trendy to have a mental disorder. it really takes away from those who have actual problems.

[Scuddie]

Jesus...  I cant believe some of the ignorant bull**** that is coming out of some peoples' network cards.  ADD is a very real disorder, but it is also very illusive.  Here's a hint for you guys.  ADD has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with hyperactivity, except for the fact that a person (not child) pays just as much attention to everything else as much as his hyperactivity.  The reason why you see ADD tied to hyperactivity, is that kids are, by nature, hyperactive compared to adults.  Which brings me to my next point.  The one main misconception, and a gross one at that, is that children are the vast majority of ADD victims.  Quite the contrary; nine times out of ten, the child never grows out of it.  Sometimes, an adolescant acquires it after reaching maturity.

Anyway, I was diagnosed with ADD when I was four years old.  It has been with me for almost twenty years, and I know more of what it is about, than many of these would-be school counselors.  I also find it appalling that there is a ritalin epidemic.  Before this travesty, the estimated number was one in every ten thousand, not one in every ten.  I believe the 'dated' ideas are far more accurate than the ones today.

Anyway, ADD is not only an affliction, but it can also be a gift.  When I was a kid, I was in two special ed classes.  One of them was RSP, the other was GATE.  I was using them both at the same time, as odd as it sounds.  I was using RSP to find better ways of learning how to "book learn", while GATE served to harness the power of non-linear thinking.  It was beneficial, but those were some of the hardest times of my life.

Anyway...  I just realized that was the third time I said Anyway.  ADD does that.  Anyway (), it seems people have no idea what the disorder is.  Attention Deficit Disorder is not what the name implies.  Attention is actually an abundant resource, but the victim has focus issues that does not allow them to focus on only one priority.  Instead, every surrounding is important.  If a person had a real deficit of attention skills, he would most likely be mentally retarded (forgive the non-PC).

It took me 20 minutes to write this post, and I changed the wording about 35 times.  Not very efficient.

EDIT:  Study my post.  Note how out of order and jumbled it is.  I am often accused of ranting and rambling, but fact of the matter is, that is the best post I can come up with.  It seems 'out there', but for me, it makes perfect sense.

[Nuke]

it is important to note that add used to be refered to as ad/hd, attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. which i believe throws of people off, i think eventually they blamed the hyperactivity on the parents and eliminated the h. at the time any of us ex-ritilin heads were taking ritilin it was still primarily called ad/hd. i had to put up with special schools and such too. alaskas kinda dumb, the like to put all the reject kids in the same school. `that includes kids with autisim, mental disorders, kids with drug addictions, retardation, kids with violent streaks up the wazoo, extream personalitys that you didnt want to really mix together.. the place was staffed with of security and had metal detectors and little padded detention cells (which i spent of time in). its the kinda scholl that unless you were big and looked dangerous you were pretty much screwed. the advantage of being tall and weighing in at 260 kinda saved me from all sorts of crap. but i saw little kids beaten by students, ive seens a student stab another in the arm with a pencil. the kinda place you dont want to put your kids in.but it could have been worce, they could have put me in a christian school.

[Scuddie]

It is important to note that it is no longer called ADHD because they realized that ADD has no corrolation with hyperactivity.  Now, it is either ADD, or ADD with hyperactivity.  Often you see someone just staring into space, looking like an imbecile.  Unknown to you, that guy's brain activity is going thru the roof.  That's how I was.

I never had to deal with ****ed up schools like you poor alaskan bastards did.  I was pulled out after 4th grade, because everyone knew I would follow a similar future.

Now here's some food for thought.  I have ADD, I also have petty epilepsy.  Discuss .

[aldo_14]

NB: ADD is not equal to ADHD, it's one of 3 forms; IIRC it can be both (hyperactive & attention defecit) or either of the 2.  People with ADHD have been documented as having different size, symmetry and brain chemistry, although it's not conclusive that this is specifically due to/is causing ADHD; I think work is being done to identify (it there are) genetic factors, or whether toxins in the womb during development are a factor.

Scuddie's right in highlighting ADHD isn't a childhood affliction; it's just more obvious because adults are better equipped to control & 'handle' it.  However, I believe - in the UK figures at least - the figure that continue to have ADHD is ~50%.

I think the UK (diagnosis) rate of ADHD is 1.7%.  IIRC, the US prescription rate of Ritalin is something like 7%; that to me indicates something is wrong at one end or the other.

[Bobboau]

"ADD is a real disorder/disese"

diferent!=disese

I mean isn't this the sort of atitude that allowed the real eugenic cleanseing? not that mental traits might have some genetic component. (OH! back on topic, hows that for a disorder of deficent atention)

[EtherShock]

Originally posted by Scuddie
Jesus...  I cant believe some of the ignorant bull**** that is coming out of some peoples' network cards.  ADD is a very real disorder, but it is also very illusive.  Here's a hint for you guys.  ADD has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with hyperactivity, except for the fact that a person (not child) pays just as much attention to everything else as much as his hyperactivity.  The reason why you see ADD tied to hyperactivity, is that kids are, by nature, hyperactive compared to adults.  Which brings me to my next point.  The one main misconception, and a gross one at that, is that children are the vast majority of ADD victims.  Quite the contrary; nine times out of ten, the child never grows out of it.  Sometimes, an adolescant acquires it after reaching maturity.

Anyway, I was diagnosed with ADD when I was four years old.  It has been with me for almost twenty years, and I know more of what it is about, than many of these would-be school counselors.  I also find it appalling that there is a ritalin epidemic.  Before this travesty, the estimated number was one in every ten thousand, not one in every ten.  I believe the 'dated' ideas are far more accurate than the ones today.

Anyway, ADD is not only an affliction, but it can also be a gift.  When I was a kid, I was in two special ed classes.  One of them was RSP, the other was GATE.  I was using them both at the same time, as odd as it sounds.  I was using RSP to find better ways of learning how to "book learn", while GATE served to harness the power of non-linear thinking.  It was beneficial, but those were some of the hardest times of my life.

Anyway...  I just realized that was the third time I said Anyway.  ADD does that.  Anyway (), it seems people have no idea what the disorder is.  Attention Deficit Disorder is not what the name implies.  Attention is actually an abundant resource, but the victim has focus issues that does not allow them to focus on only one priority.  Instead, every surrounding is important.  If a person had a real deficit of attention skills, he would most likely be mentally retarded (forgive the non-PC).

It took me 20 minutes to write this post, and I changed the wording about 35 times.  Not very efficient.

EDIT:  Study my post.  Note how out of order and jumbled it is.  I am often accused of ranting and rambling, but fact of the matter is, that is the best post I can come up with.  It seems 'out there', but for me, it makes perfect sense.

Makes sense to me, and I don't have ADD. People just fear what they don't understand, morons.

Originally posted by Nuke
it is important to note that add used to be refered to as ad/hd, attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. which i believe throws of people off, i think eventually they blamed the hyperactivity on the parents and eliminated the h. at the time any of us ex-ritilin heads were taking ritilin it was still primarily called ad/hd. i had to put up with special schools and such too. alaskas kinda dumb, the like to put all the reject kids in the same school. `that includes kids with autisim, mental disorders, kids with drug addictions, retardation, kids with violent streaks up the wazoo, extream personalitys that you didnt want to really mix together.. the place was staffed with of security and had metal detectors and little padded detention cells (which i spent of time in). its the kinda scholl that unless you were big and looked dangerous you were pretty much screwed. the advantage of being tall and weighing in at 260 kinda saved me from all sorts of crap. but i saw little kids beaten by students, ive seens a student stab another in the arm with a pencil. the kinda place you dont want to put your kids in.but it could have been worce, they could have put me in a christian school.

Nuke brings up a very important point. The state likes to keep its subjects--er, children in public schools. They don't like to let them go for some reason. My brother was not suited for public school. He was in it for quite a while. I think they were planning on "mainstreaming" him. We had to fight really hard to get him out of the public school system. Now he attends a school that addresses his needs. He's much better off there.