[Kosh]

However, He also has granted us free will, even when we choose things in opposition to His will. This shouldn't be that hard to comprehend, as many families operate this way. "Son, I'd really prefer if you'd stop hanging out with that gang - they're just trouble. But I'm not gonna force you; you're old enough to make your own decisions." So just because something's not His will, doesn't mean He's gonna force the issue.

That's like saying to a 5 year old "Drugs are bad for you, but we're going to let you do it anyway".

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
It strikes me that the common justification tends to be - good things for the person = Gods will, bad things for the person = consequence of God giving free will.

Of course it is. When did you last hear an athlete blame God for losing a game?

[redmenace]

Poor word choice, what I really mean is they forced God's hand. It is also worth saying that God, in the old testament, did send prophets to warn them of their impeeding peril. As per the overbearing, God, offered them a binding contract which was the attoinment of sins through the shedding of blood since no one person could follow the law perfectly. Is it overbearing to be concerned for ones people? I don't think it is overbearing when there is one human means of attonement for sin according to the Old Covenant. See, it is my personal belief, that God has a inate sense of order. In other words doing things according to a system. Sort of like Physics.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Kosh
That's like saying to a 5 year old "Drugs are bad for you, but we're going to let you do it anyway".

And if God says I am going to intervene and keep you from doing drugs what, then do you say about God? See freewill is part of his creation. An example, the Shadows and Vorlons acted like Gods forcing people to take sides, influencing their evolutionary paths. Were they right to interfere in the younger races in such a way? True they did not create these younger races, however.

[aldo_14]

If people want to believe in an interventionist God that supports or is responsible for their actions, IMO it is hypocritical and assumptive to assume that they're the only ones being 'guided' or supported.  Whether or not God - in any diety form - exists, IMO it's foolish to believe that personal or religious interpretation of what is and what is not a 'blessing' upon actions can be used as justification for anything.

[Kosh]

Or is it that God is an illusion?

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by aldo_14
If people want to believe in an interventionist God that supports or is responsible for their actions, IMO it is hypocritical and assumptive to assume that they're the only ones being 'guided' or supported.  Whether or not God - in any diety form - exists, IMO it's foolish to believe that personal or religious interpretation of what is and what is not a 'blessing' upon actions can be used as justification for anything.

In English?

[aldo_14]

You can't justify anything with God if it affects people who don't think God justifies it.

[Sandwich]

...in plain English?

Sorry, I'm tired. Don't mind me.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by redmenace
Poor word choice, what I really mean is they forced God's hand. It is also worth saying that God, in the old testament, did send prophets to warn them of their impeeding peril.

Still hasn't sent the messiah though. At least not any messiah the Jews believe in.

[aldo_14]

"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"

[karajorma]

Pretty much sums up the Jewish view of Jesus

[Singh]

....The thing about taking any reference and particularly any statement from God in there is that it is way too easy to twist it's meaning to a particular situation and for one's own ends. I seriously doubt that those phrases have any comprehensible meaning today, since they are taken entirely out of context and age.

Comprehending them would require interpretation, which mostly means only the interpretation with the most appeal to the masses will 'survive' so to speak, but it might not necessarily be hte right one. but then the correct one might not be any of the minority groups either, since we are unable to think in the same way as the person who wrote down the information or read what he was trying to intent (again, its just an interpretation) rendering such information nearly useless.

........Just a minor thought.

jumps back out of thread before he's hit with Grenade and Rocket Launchers

[aldo_14]

Dammit, he's fast.

*reload*

[redmenace]

Originally posted by karajorma


Still hasn't sent the messiah though. At least not any messiah the Jews believe in.

I am not sure quite what messiah they are waiting for. What I mean is that the old testament prophecies were fullfilled, assuming the new testament account of Christ was correct. What I mean is, the jews rejected jesus because, partly because of the religous leaders, but also because they were looking for a warrior to defeat the Romans and restore Israel to its former glory etc. I am just wondering to my self, what do they expect from a Messiah in the modern era. That said, this all has nothing to do with the pull out of Gaza (however a very interesting conversation indeed).

But like I said before, this is not simply some people invading anothers country. The jews had lived in the area for 1000s of years before being removed in the diasperas. And to make things even more awefull, these settlers have to leave their lives, homes, businesses etc. And not only that, but people, some of which would like to see the entire Jewish race wiped out, not get to take your homes, your businesses, and left over property to be claimed as their own. Personally my heart goes out to those that are being evicted.

[KappaWing]

Originally posted by Charismatic
[religousrant] I think "WTF YOU DUMB ASSES!" @ Israle. Dammit Israle! Its YOUR land, keep it. I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them. The two disputed strips\peices of land (the west bank and gaza strip) ISRALE should take over and keep.
God gave them the land, its practially their birthright, and they give it up for peace? There will be no peace! They have given them permission to stay less then a mile away from them and bomb them when they feel like it, from now on.
Dispite that, i wonder what God is going to do about this, about Israle. Once again they disobeyed God. *Sigh*

Way back when, before they settled in israle, God said to destroy a bunch of groups of people, they did most but left some alive. Thus the palistinions. And they have plauged them ever after. Dumbasses'.[religousrant]

Hmmmm... I'm on the Palistineans (sp?) side when it comes to middle east stuff.... I mean, they were there first. They had the land for thousands of years. The jews just poured in during the last century. The Jews have no right to just come barging in and demand their holy land back, disturbing the already-settled palistineans. I think it's simply a matter of who was there first.[/IMHO]

[mikhael]

Jews will make the same argument, with a six thousand year precedent, KappaWing. That's why you can't use it as a justification for either side.

[KappaWing]

Tru be dat, Mik.

But that doesent change the fact that the Jews INVADED Palestine with little/no palestinian provoking. A few thousand years should have solidified permanent Palestinian presence, but religion is a timeless thing, and people think they own something if it was theirs thousands of years ago. I can understand the Jews being fed up with the Holocaust and whatnot but that doesent give them the right to exert their unprovoked wrath on the Palestinians who have been living there for thousands of years IMO.

[mikhael]

In defense of Israel, that's a rather uninformed description of how the modern nation of Israel was founded.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Some people are just so unforgiveably stupid.

*Looks at Charasmatic*