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Offline aldo_14

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Offline Bobboau

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp
But, I'm not gonna go i depth why I really Know, since you allready probley know that part.:)


no, do go on, this is what we have been asking, give us the basis of your 'scientific theory'
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp


Hmm, tough question,

It was ether Science that broke it's own laws,

A Warlock who split the boundries of space and time using magic.

A Robot who using a time machine came back with some kind of uber mass creating bomb.

Or a All powerful, Omni present God who created everything with his hands and set everything in order.:nod:

But, I'm not gonna go i depth why I really Know, since you allready probley know that part.:)

To lay out the possibilities at this point is meaningless. Before the refutation of spontaneous generation theory, a scientist would have argued that there were only two possibilities: the mold simply appears after a certain amount of time, or someone is putting it there when we're not looking. They had no knowledge of microscopic life, so their frame of reference was obscured. The same is true of our understanding of the universe's origins. We don't have the explanation because we don't have enough information yet.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau


no, do go on, this is what we have been asking, give us the basis of your 'scientific theory'


Who said anything about a scientific theory.;) I said the reason I  know is because I have God inside my heart. But, I kind of figured you would know I would say that.

We know by Physics, matter can not come out of nowhere,it just don't happen, You know it, I know it and if anyone else who knows any about science knows it. So, things cannot just appear.

We also know by Physics, that a object it'self cannot move unless force is aplied,

take this example, you place a toy car on a perfectly flat surface, no wind, temp stays the same, there is nothing to disturb it, now it' not gonna move uless you get down and push it. Now what happens if it starts moving by it's self, some would say it's impossible. But, thats exectly the same thing about the whole Big Bang theory. It started it's self.

So, if it didn't start it's self, what helped it, there was nothing, no spec of dust, just nothing, not even the vacuum of space. Now if it wasn't an All powerful God, what could have started the big, no huge universe we see today. It don't take that much logic to figure that out.:)

But, now lets get off the whole begining thing, and go to where life started. Now lets say you are right about evolution, ok life is started, now where is the nature that keeps this thing alive, since this is the first life form, it has nothing before it to take it's pattern, how would it live, eat, ect.? Once again you would need a All knowing God, one who knows how to make it live, and inplant all genes, it's nature how it reproduces, Ect.

And now you will probley say "it was simple, so it was easy to find that out", then I say this, I was watching this show about this neat little spider who don't use his web to fish for food instead of waiting for it's prey, how did it learn, same way with the trap door spider, how did it learn to live that way.

Now you will say that its Natural Selection, but then I say, look at all the other kinds of cretures on this planet, look at all the different ways they survive. I don't know about you but  Natural Selection seams way too smart to be just a random thing, don't you think.

But, it's not Natural Selection, it's not chance, it's far far to orginized to be random, with no flaws, it's like someone has created all the different natures of these millions of kinds of animals, sometimes you just sit back in amazement when you hear how one animal survives. You sit back in awe and say, how could that happen, and I would have never thought of that.

Well, when you think of how an animal surives or how something works, you are thinking that thought after God has thought of it.

While someone will come and totally try to disprove what I've said, and probley how poor it was writen. But, I didn't have to post this, if you are as smart as I know you guys are, you allready knew this.:)
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
... ok..... a theory or view that some parts of nature/life show to have been designed (at least in part) by some higher entity, pre-existing intelligence, etc. as opposed to other theories.


And yet again you've failed despite me telling you what I expected in a response.

Lets pretend I know nothing about evolution or the bible (like a child in school see). You teach ID on it's own (no evolution, no other competing theories) what would I know at the end of the course?


As far as I can tell at the end of an ID course all I'd know is that the eye is too complex to have evolved so therefore God must exist.

If you asked me how long humans have been on Earth I wouldn't know. If you asked me how long whales have existed I wouldn't know.

As far as I can see for a theory that claims to explain the origin of complex life on Earth ID is spectacularly bad at it. It's not answered a single question that the child might have had.



BTW guys don't let the creationists bait you into a big bang or abiogenesis discussion. Proponents of ID state that it is a replacement for evolution. As such discussions of the big bang or abiogenesis are 100% irrelavent to this discussion. All that matters is that given a living cell whether ID or Darwinian evolution can explain the origin of mankind.

Talking about the big bang etc is just an attempt to throw the discussion off track because not one single person has yet managed to answer the challenge I posted right near the start of the thread.




@WeatherOp. Stop telling us why evolution is wrong and start trying to tell us why ID is right. If you want to discuss some other kind of creationism take it elsewhere. This thread is about ID.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 07:24:24 pm by 340 »
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Offline Galemp

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Kara's got my vote. I think arguing over whether ID holds any merit or not takes a back seat to debating the impact it would have if it was actually being taught in schools.
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Offline Shrike

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Shame I got beaten to the relevant points about computers being irrelevant to evolution.  So instead I'll make a joke.

If ID'ers had to choose a specific species for the jesus fish, it'd be the red herring.
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp
Now you will say that its Natural Selection, but then I say, look at all the other kinds of cretures on this planet, look at all the different ways they survive. I don't know about you but  Natural Selection seams way too smart to be just a random thing, don't you think.


Yeah, and I think gravity is too smart to have come by on its own. Heck, it's so smart it conveniently pulls us down to the Earth, rather than repelling us! This is evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster designed our universe.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
[B
@WeatherOp. Stop telling us why evolution is wrong and start trying to tell us why ID is right. If you want to discuss some other kind of creationism take it elsewhere. This thread is about ID. [/B]


Umm, did I say anything in my post about Evolution being wrong? I don't think so.:) How can I tell you how ID is right when no one has even said what it is?;) And BTW Bobboau asked what my Theory was.

Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze


Yeah, and I think gravity is too smart to have come by on its own. Heck, it's so smart it conveniently pulls us down to the Earth, rather than repelling us! This is evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster designed our universe.


Umm, and Physics are related to Natural Selection, How.;)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 07:56:14 pm by 2303 »
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp

Umm, and Physics are related to Natural Selection, How.;)


It doesn't matter how they're related, the argument that God must have created species because natural selection is "too smart" is just as tenuous as saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster uses his noodly appendages to pull you down to the Earth because gravity is "too smart".

What is "too smart"? Why can't a physical process have a "smart" behavior? Your argument lacks clarity and evidence. It relies on muddy and imprecise thinking and communication.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze


It doesn't matter how they're related, the argument that God must have created species because natural selection is "too smart" is just as tenuous as saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster uses his noodly appendages to pull you down to the Earth because gravity is "too smart".

What is "too smart"? Why can't a physical process have a "smart" behavior? Your argument lacks clarity and evidence. It relies on muddy and imprecise thinking and communication.


I would respond to that, But it would clearly be off topic with ID. So, that awnser will have to wait.:)
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp


Who said anything about a scientific theory.;) I said the reason I  know is because I have God inside my heart. But, I kind of figured you would know I would say that.

We know by Physics, matter can not come out of nowhere,it just don't happen, You know it, I know it and if anyone else who knows any about science knows it. So, things cannot just appear.

We also know by Physics, that a object it'self cannot move unless force is aplied,

take this example, you place a toy car on a perfectly flat surface, no wind, temp stays the same, there is nothing to disturb it, now it' not gonna move uless you get down and push it. Now what happens if it starts moving by it's self, some would say it's impossible. But, thats exectly the same thing about the whole Big Bang theory. It started it's self.

So, if it didn't start it's self, what helped it, there was nothing, no spec of dust, just nothing, not even the vacuum of space. Now if it wasn't an All powerful God, what could have started the big, no huge universe we see today. It don't take that much logic to figure that out.:)

But, now lets get off the whole begining thing, and go to where life started. Now lets say you are right about evolution, ok life is started, now where is the nature that keeps this thing alive, since this is the first life form, it has nothing before it to take it's pattern, how would it live, eat, ect.? Once again you would need a All knowing God, one who knows how to make it live, and inplant all genes, it's nature how it reproduces, Ect.

And now you will probley say "it was simple, so it was easy to find that out", then I say this, I was watching this show about this neat little spider who don't use his web to fish for food instead of waiting for it's prey, how did it learn, same way with the trap door spider, how did it learn to live that way.

Now you will say that its Natural Selection, but then I say, look at all the other kinds of cretures on this planet, look at all the different ways they survive. I don't know about you but  Natural Selection seams way too smart to be just a random thing, don't you think.

But, it's not Natural Selection, it's not chance, it's far far to orginized to be random, with no flaws, it's like someone has created all the different natures of these millions of kinds of animals, sometimes you just sit back in amazement when you hear how one animal survives. You sit back in awe and say, how could that happen, and I would have never thought of that.

Well, when you think of how an animal surives or how something works, you are thinking that thought after God has thought of it.

While someone will come and totally try to disprove what I've said, and probley how poor it was writen. But, I didn't have to post this, if you are as smart as I know you guys are, you allready knew this.:)


But can you take that, and provide any actual evidence of it?  

I don't think natural selection is 'too smart'.  I think it's natural that in a system with millions of interacting elements (as biology, the environment, etc has) it's inevitable you will see a vast amount of differentiation.  But that's a side matter.

The point is, you can say this, but there is no evidence of it.  Forget any holes in evolution you may perceive; there is nothing here that can be presented and supported by evidence.  Nothing that can be proven.

All the stuff you've said.... it's your perspective.  Plants and animals evolve with flaws.  The first life form is a single celled organism (whose component amino acids have probably evolved) which survives thanks to a beneficial chemical reaction, and over millions of years mutates and diversifies exponentially to what we have today.    All these things you give for your belief.... science is answering.  More importantly, science is about finding these answers, not chalking them off to an abstract concept and ignoring the question.

So how on earth can ID be taught as if it were a science?  It doesn't seek to provide any answers, only discredit the most solid, evidenced theory.  It doesn't offer any solutions in turn, just an abstract that is designed to be untestable and unknowable.

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp


I would respond to that, But it would clearly be off topic with ID. So, that awnser will have to wait.:)


Uh-huh. Right. Well, back on topic then. Do you propose ID to be taught in science classrooms? Why? Don't weasel yourself out of actually answering this question please.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 08:14:00 pm by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze


Uh-huh. Right. Well, back on topic then. Do you propose ID to be taught in science classrooms? Why? Don't weasel yourself out of actually answering this question please.


Care to tell me what ID is, like I asked before?;) And BTW if you want to countinue the other topic please make another thread, and as long as the flames stay out, I would be happy to keep going.:)



Quote
Originally posted by Aldo_14
I don't think natural selection is 'too smart'. I think it's natural that in a system with millions of interacting elements (as biology, the environment, etc has) it's inevitable you will see a vast amount of differentiation. But that's a side matter.[?B]


this is the last time I will take this topic off.

Could you do the same thing, make all creatures, elemental tables, Physics Tables, like they are now. No, then how can they be random, If the smartest creature on earth can't make it as perfect as it is, how could Random do it?;) And where did that "natural" come from, if it is a pattern then it must have been set up, if it's not than "natural" don't exist.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 08:44:05 pm by 2303 »
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Offline Bobboau

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp


Care to tell me what ID is


it would be the answer to the question I asked.

and who said everything was totaly random, just because something wasn't made by an intelegence does not meant it is totaly random.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau


it would be the answer to the question I asked.

and who said everything was totaly random, just because something wasn't made by an intelegence does not meant it is totaly random.


Umm, yeah it is. If you close your eyes and type on the computer what shows up is random unless you know what keys your typing, cause for anything to not be random would mean there had to be something controling it, or causing it. To know what it was doing.;)
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp
Care to tell me what ID is, like I asked before?;)


ID is the belief that some higher power (e.g. God) designed and created the varieties of organisms, rather than evolution and natural selection.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze


ID is the belief that some higher power (e.g. God) designed and created the varieties of organisms, rather than evolution and natural selection.


I thought that is just Creationisim?
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Umm, and Physics are related to Natural Selection, How.

Everything is related to physics.
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Offline Bobboau

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creationism is calling the bible science.
intelegent design is saying a god(like force) made everything.

ok give some examples of things that are totaly random and not a creation.
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