[CaptJosh]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon

I'm not sure how cell shading is done, but it seems like a reasonable per-mission or even per-ship/weapon/object option. If it can only be turned on when fs2_open is started then maybe a .tbl option is in order.

Cell shading is a texture, AFAIK. It's basically to make the ships look cartooney. IIRC, on the scp site, there is a vp file with cell shading textures available. But you have to turn off some other feature to make it work. I don't remember, though. I'm not really interested in it.

[karajorma]

Somehow I think you've completely failed to fill in WMC on anything he didn't already know.

[CaptJosh]

He's the one who said he didn't understand. Cell shading is basically a texture that's supposed to look like it was hand drawn like a cartoon, no?

[StratComm]

Originally posted by Trashman
...

This is coming from the guy who would rather completely **** over table balance because he doesn't like the inconvienence of not being able to plop two ships down in-mission with beam-free-all and have them play out perfectly every time, so I guess arguing is just going to be lost on deaf ears.  It might be useful to add as a ship flag, but as I understand it flags aren't something that (with the current system) can be added indefinitely and the limit's creeping up quickly as it stands.

Originally posted by Spicious
So shouldn't these gameplay altering features be mission, ship or weapon flags rather than command line options?

Yes, but they're command-line flags now.  If that gets changed, then my point is moot, but I'm only talking about EXISTING features.

Originally posted by CaptJosh
He's the one who said he didn't understand. Cell shading is basically a texture that's supposed to look like it was hand drawn like a cartoon, no?

Um, no.  WMC said he didn't know how cell-shading processing is done (seperate from the media, which only enhances the effect) not that he didn't know what cell shading is.  There is processing that gets done to make cell-shading look different too (-cell) so it's not just a matter of textures.

[CaptJosh]

Well, it does say that you have to enable that option to make activate the textures, or something like that. Like I said, I have no interest in making things look like a cartoon, so I don't bother with that feature.

[StratComm]

Nope again.  The textures are activated just by having the mv_cell vp in your root directory.  The -cell option changes the way lighting is applied (and a few other things as well) so that ships with proper cell-shading textures will look cartoony.  Very different animal.  You're new so I wouldn't have expected you to know that, but by the same token, you're new so you've got no business correcting someone who actually works on the SCP either.

[CaptJosh]

Correcting? I made a comment, and then was told I was mistaken. I started asking questions. Please stop jumping to confusions.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I'm not sure those should even be command-line options...but that's exactly the sort of thinking I'm talking about. If I have global command-line options, I'd like to be able to use them. And if they don't work, it's just a pain in the ass to go back and figure out why, what with intermod dependencies and such.

I'm not sure how cell shading is done, but it seems like a reasonable per-mission or even per-ship/weapon/object option. If it can only be turned on when fs2_open is started then maybe a .tbl option is in order.

I think cell shading simply maps a sort of light range which is either all shaded, or not shaded atall.  

So... when you calculate the light reaching a pixel, rather than just applying that light, you use it to set a threshold of how much light to apply.

So, um, if you have 200,200,200 illuminating 200,200,200 on a normal lighting model....

You could have like between 255,255,255 and 200,200,200 lighting 255,255,255, and then 100,100,100 to 200,200,200 lighting 150,150,150, etc.  And soforth for shading, so a range of light/shade 'real' values map to single applied light/shade value.

I'm not too sure about the black highlights....I think they're created by rendering an enlarged, all black model with flipped faces or somesuch.  You'll probably understand it a bit better reading http://www.gamedev.net/reference/programming/features/celshading/ or somesuch.  Or just ask Bob.  

I need to read up on my grpahics theory quite a lot, to be honest, because that sounds a shoddy description.  I keep on thinking of something to do with goraud for some reason....

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by CaptJosh
Correcting? I made a comment, and then was told I was mistaken. I started asking questions. Please stop jumping to confusions.

You have a tendency to post like this, though.  I don't know if you realize it, but the majority of your posts read like you're talking down to people.  I searched through your 100-odd posts and they tended to sound either smug, dismissive, or demanding. That's probably why you were accused of being a n00b not too long ago.  Whether you intend to or not, you sound like one.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by CaptJosh
Correcting? I made a comment, and then was told I was mistaken. I started asking questions. Please stop jumping to confusions.

1) You're explaining to the person who compiles the VP files for the SCP what is in the VP section of the SCP site. WMC knows what's there. He put most of it there!.

2) You're explaining what cell shading is to WMC when it's pretty damn likely that he knows. What he was saying is that he doesn't know how it's implimented in the code. Your response didn't help explain that.

The fact that WMC (and myself for that matter) have SCP avatars should really clue you in to the fact that we are likely to know a fair bit about the SCP. If you'd been paying attention you'd have noticed that he was saying that he didn't know how cell shading was done not what it is.

[CaptJosh]

You know, I tried to come up with a post to say how a feel about this, but I get the feeling most of you would've just read what I started with as a long diatribe against this board and its members, regardless of my  true intent.

I'm trying to contribute as best I can without knowing all the little details about the SCP boards. Somehow, someone seems to have gotten the idea that even though I'm new, I should have a perfect understanding of the dynamics around here. And somehow, some of you have been infected by this logical fallacy. Given the short time I've known about the SCP and the even shorter time I've been posting to this board, there is no way I could have gotten the dynamics of these forums down in an even shorter time. What I have seen is by turns both encouraging and discouraging.

I see some of the people here working together well to try to make a better game. But at the same time I see people flaming eachother over an idea that in and of itself is not inherently bad, but like most ideas, has both good and bad points. I've seen folks willing to forgive me a little grouchiness whet I apologize for it, but then I've seen people tear into me for a mistake that required a short paragraph of simple explanation.

Just in this thread, I misread/misinterpereted what someone said, and rather than waiting for him to say something about "that's not what I meant", I got jumped on by someone else, as if WMC couldn't respond effectively to my comment on his own. Regardless, once It was pointed out to me that I was mistaken, I started asking about it more. Did I put periods where I should have had question marks in some places? Yes, I did. In doing so, it changed something that was supposed to show uncertainty into appearing as a flat statement, and so some of what I was trying to communicate was...lost in translation, as it were. I could go back and edit all my posts, to match up with what I intended, but I somehow feel it would be a waste of time, as I doubt anyone else would edit theirs to a be appropriate replies to my fixed posts. Of course, if I'm wrong on that, I'm sure someone will tell me, hopefully politely. Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to try to contribute constructively  to this community, regardless of how someone else may interperet my posts.

[karajorma]

I think it's time to take this one to PM as it really doesn't belong in public.

If one of the other mods wants to handle this as well that's fine. Any other comments of the subject will be deleted.

[CaptJosh]

Don't worry about it, karajorma. I said my piece and I'm done.

Getting back on topic...

aldo, interesting description, even if I really can't make head or tail of it. I'm no graphic designer. I'll leave that stuff to the people that are.

[karajorma]

I meant I was taking it to PM. I'm about halfway done

[WMCoolmon]

Yikes

Yeah, what I meant was the technical process, eg would it be plausible to enable/disable cell-shading based on a mission setting instead of a command-line var. (Or with the command-line var serving to override it.)

I can think of some cases where someone might want to do a cell-shaded mission and not need any mods (mostly things like DEM...) and it would get rid of a command-line being used in a meh way.

[CaptJosh]

It seems to me that if it could be done with mission scripting or other alternate methods, It could be useful somewhere. Maybe a ship that's supposed to look more grown than built?

Another thought. I just realized that the distances in this game are really short for what they should be. An AIM-54C missile has a range of some 80 nautical miles, or or 150km. The longest ranged missile in this game has a range of barely 4km. Does anyone else find that a little odd? We have a missile now that can go 80 nautical miles (92.064 standard miles), but the missiles in this game have an engagemant envelope sometimes shorter than that of the guns. I realize it's not a simulation. This is just one of those "things that make you go, 'huh?'"

[StratComm]

It's not supposed to be anything resembling a simulation.  Your fighter does about 60mph most of the time too.  If you want realism, you've got the wrong game

[CaptJosh]

60 mph? What is this? World War 2?

[StratComm]

In Space?!?

(In case anyone here didn't know already, that's exactly what Freespace is supposed to feel like.)

[CaptJosh]

I thought it seemed a bit slow for the timeframe if basing one's analysis on tech devolopment curves as we know them.

I wonder...hrm...How hard would it to be to modify this game for a more modern warfare feel? Like with speeds around and above that of sound(in terran atmosphere) for fighters, and about half that for bombers... Leave the ships going about 40, 45 MPH tops...that's got to have something to do with the tables, I would think. But then it's likely that some missions would need to be redone to conpensate for the speeds. Plus impacts would be much more dangerous...Call it something who thinks even the hardest difficulty is too hard.

Missiles would have to have increased range and speed...and guns would have to reach some 1.6 to 3.2 km...

Does that sound like fun to anyone? Or does it just sound scary?