Author Topic: FS3?  (Read 23843 times)

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Offline Shrike

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The thing is, you're not facing some kid who was sent to kindergarden by their parents, who's got a girlfriend back home, who's got a little child.  You are facing a five-legged bug with incomprehensible thought processes which in all evidence is out to completely and totally annihilate your species, no quarter.  You cannot find common ground with the Shivans, at least not as far as the FS2 story has progressed.  There is only kill or be killed, nothing else.

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Offline Unidan

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
There is only kill or be killed, nothing else.

They are what they are, nothing more. There is nothing to explain because there is nothing to be explained.



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Offline karajorma

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But what if that isn`t what the shivans are up to?

In Enders Game the buggers killed large numbers of humans because they were a hive mind and didn`t understand that they were killing individuals. They saw kidnapping and disecting a few live humans the same way a human scientist would see taking a cell culture.

In B5 the shadows appear to be trying to wipe out all other life forms until halfway through you find out that their goal is to promote evolution through survival of the fittest.

Alien creatures can have completely alien motives for what they are doing. Even if they do have human motives though that doesn`t mean that they are genocidal as a species trait. What if the shivans currently have a Hitler style leader? The average shivan might not particularly want to wipe out humans.
 What if the capellan supernova was something like turning Jupiter into a star in 2010?
 Since we know next to nothing about the shivans so it's hard to say why they do what they do.
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
What if the capellan supernova was something like turning Jupiter into a star in 2010?

Huh?  



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Offline karajorma

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In the movie 2010 (Sequal to 2001) Jupiter gets turned into a star because a higher power believes that humanity needed it to happen for their further development (I think that was the reason. It's been a long time since I saw that movie)
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
In the movie 2010 (Sequal to 2001) Jupiter gets turned into a star because a higher power believes that humanity needed it to happen for their further development (I think that was the reason. It's been a long time since I saw that movie)

It was as a result of an impending war between the US and USSR, and they granted humans the moons around Europa  - except the Ice one (Europa?).

 

Offline Su-tehp

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The alien superbeing that created the monolith (Dave Bowman "met" it when he was taken "inside" the monolith at the end of 2001) turned Jupiter into a star in order to feed the chlorophyl that had been seeded on Europa. Apparently, this superbeing put chrolophyl on Europa because it saw that Europa had the potential to create intelligent/sentient life eons from now. Turning Jupiter into a star would speed up the process.

"Detonating" Jupiter was for this express purpose: creating new intelligent life on Europa. Using it as a demonstration of power to the USA and the USSR was merely incidental, but still accomplished a secondary goal: keeping humanity (another sentient race that the superbeing also "uplifted" alive. (Remember how the first monolith uplifted those apes at the start of 2001 and also uplifted those astronauts who discovered the monolith on the moon midway through 2001? The Discovery (Dave Bowman's spaceship)was built by those same astronauts 18 months later...)

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Offline karajorma

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Kinda proves my point though. Alien races can do destructive things for reasons that are much more benign than at first seen.
 It's wrong to assume that the shivans are just xenophobes out to destroy us just on the basis of their actions. It may be true but then again it may not. Bosch noticed that there was a way to communicate with them and even believed that it was possible to make an allience with them. Maybe he was wrong but then again maybe he was right.
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
wrong to assume that the shivans are just xenophobes out to destroy us just on the basis of their actions.

Isn't the fact that they toasted Vasuda Prime and were about to do the same with earth, ignoring any other objective, isn't enough for you?
They're at least vasudaphobes and terraphobes  
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Offline karajorma

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Nope. It isn`t enough. The US nuked japan during the second world war but they weren`t japanaphobes were they?
  After the war we made peace with Japan and they ended up being one of the wests biggest allies.
 If the shivans are xenophobes there would never be any hope of anything apart from war with them. If however they mearly have different goals and motives there is that possibility.
 Considering that the campaign we are discussing her involves shivan defectors we`ve got proof that not all shivans are xenophobes
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
Nope. It isn`t enough. The US nuked japan during the second world war but they weren`t japanaphobes were they?
  After the war we made peace with Japan and they ended up being one of the wests biggest allies.
 If the shivans are xenophobes there would never be any hope of anything apart from war with them. If however they mearly have different goals and motives there is that possibility.
 Considering that the campaign we are discussing her involves shivan defectors we`ve got proof that not all shivans are xenophobes

excuse me, but did the japanes were standing there, and then the US came to nuke them, just like did the shivans? No, the japanese attacked first, and before they used theit bombs, there was some years of war I believe...
shivan defectors doesn't prove that not all shivans are xenophobes. just that they don't share the same goals.
Don't understand me wrong, I don't think shivans are xenophobes, that they kill everything they meet (you'll now what I think in my campaign). No. But the fact is that the statements said above don't prove anything, and are not flawless  
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Offline karajorma

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Who says the shivans started it? We know that GTI had already met the shivans before they are introduced in FS1.
 Even if they did start it the shivans might not have been involved in a xenophobic attack. In both the attack on ross 128 and the first campign mission the shivans appear in the Humans are fighting vasudan forces. The shivans could believe themselves some kind of interstellar police force, exterminating any trouble makers (remember that the ancients were also subduing other races around them and then tried it on against the shivans before they got their butts kicked)
 My point about america VS japan was that to an outside observer who didn`t know why the war started it might look like xenophobia especially once nukes started being dropped. but WWII wasn`t about that and the shivan wars might not either.
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
Who says the shivans started it? We know that GTI had already met the shivans before they are introduced in FS1.
 Even if they did start it the shivans might not have been involved in a xenophobic attack. In both the attack on ross 128 and the first campign mission the shivans appear in the Humans are fighting vasudan forces. The shivans could believe themselves some kind of interstellar police force, exterminating any trouble makers (remember that the ancients were also subduing other races around them and then tried it on against the shivans before they got their butts kicked)
 My point about america VS japan was that to an outside observer who didn`t know why the war started it might look like xenophobia especially once nukes started being dropped. but WWII wasn`t about that and the shivan wars might not either.

mmh, only flaw there: the police defends those who are attacked, the shivan attacked the terrans, but they also annihilated the vasudans...
I see only one reason why they would do that then, but I'll keep it for myself  
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Offline karajorma

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The vasudans were fighting the terrans. So the shivans kill them both.
 If you notice it isn`t just the ancients who have vanished. All the races they subdued are also missing.
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
The vasudans were fighting the terrans. So the shivans kill them both.
 If you notice it isn`t just the ancients who have vanished. All the races they subdued are also missing.

of course, the ancient didn't subdue them, they killed them ( it's said in the FS1 cutscenes). Anyway, I doubt the ancient empire was limited to the known GTVA space, so who knows what we could find after the boundaries of this known space?  
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
In the movie 2010 (Sequal to 2001)

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Offline karajorma

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I'm working along the lines that the shivans aren't mindless destroyers in my campaign. I`m not going to do an "Explaination for everything" type of campaign but I`ve got ideas that hint at an explaination for capella's destruction and what the shivans were upto during the Great War.
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma:
I'm working along the lines that the shivans aren't mindless destroyers in my campaign. I`m not going to do an "Explaination for everything" type of campaign but I`ve got ideas that hint at an explaination for capella's destruction and what the shivans were upto during the Great War.

me too   and don't worry, shivans won't be mindless blood-thirsty creatures (tho they have about nothing in common with terrans or vasudans in any way).
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Su-tehp

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh:
There's a sequel to 2001? Man, I gotta stay awake...    

 
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Elf #1: "I'm a busy elf. I've got places to go, people to act superior to and elder-than-thou attitudes to express."
Elf #2: "Oh, I know! People seem to think it's easy to perpetuate these Tolkein-esque stereotypes of haughty elves, but in reality it's very hard work."
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Offline karajorma

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The funny thing is that in FS2 the shivans are pretty mindless. I did think that maybe they were a species of much lower intelligence than humans who had somehow managed to get a leg up on the technological front. Then I played FS1. In that the shivans showed good knowledge of tactics that they didn`t show in the sequal. I guess their best general was on board the lucifer.

 
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