Poll

Should non-canon material be allowed in the wiki?

Yes
15 (48.4%)
No
16 (51.6%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: January 14, 2006, 05:54:42 am

Author Topic: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki  (Read 34199 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
There are several reasons why I didn't change the name of the poll.

1) The section of the wiki under debate is actually called the non-canon category, not the fan fiction category.
2) The SM isn't actually unique. The Lupus Nebula post is just a shorter version of the same thing. There are lots of vetrans who would recognise the name in the same way that they'd recognise the SM by name.
3) I didn't want to pick on the SM as that would appear to be an attempt to get it banned just because of my own personal feeling about the theory.

And the sad fact is that after 4 pages we're absolutely no closer to reaching a consensus on what to do :rolleyes:
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
I think the "non canon" thing is fine as far as the poll goes. I mean, if articles about fan fiction pieces (that are in there only because they are well known, not because they make sense) aren't allowed, then there is no real reason to have articles about fan fiction on which user made campaigns are based either. I'm sure there are campaigns out there with inconsistencies and contradictions as bad as the SM.

You know, who wrote the Shivan Manifesto anyway? Is he still even around? It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on this whole issue.

Um, Antares (?) I think.  Begin with an 'A', anyways.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
Sounds about right to me.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
Thing is, non-canon stuff for campaigns can go on that particular campaigns' page, where does non-canon stuff without a 'reason' go? Personally I can see it turning into one page of non-canon literature, with about 3 pages of arguments for and against between each paragraph.

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
Wow, what a thread.  I haven't read it all, so my apologies if I go back over familiar ground.

I think we should have non-canon information in the wiki, as long as it is clearly marked as such.

Let's face a couple of facts with Freespace in general:  There isn't a lot of canon information, and there is unlikely to be any more in the forseeable future.  We are on our own, for the most part.  Sure, we have stuff to work with, the games, the bible, a few errant comments, but that's really it.  No more insights into Shivan behavior, no more missions, no more secrets.  What we have is all we'll get and that's it.

So people have some ideas of what is supposed to be going on.  That's good, it keeps us going, keeps us creating.  We can't, nor should we ever, ignore it.  It's part of the FS community, even if it isn't part of FS directly.  To exclude it is folly.

Again, it needs to be seperate.  I don't want to see the Shivan Manifesto next to the species description, but I want to be able to read the Manifesto and be able to compare it in a meaningful way to what little canon we have.  It's still part of Freespace, in a round about way.  It's NOT canon, but it is still interesting.

That said, there should be a special section for non-canon theories and such, a place for these things to be posted and examined.  It's part of our community knowledge, and it should have a home next to the rest of it.

Done, you can go back to arguing now.
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Offline StratComm

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
I think what I was proposing was to change the non-canon category to fan-fiction, add a user campaigns category or link to the current page from the front (or both), and reassign the few random things in "non-canon" to one or the other.  The whole problem of this thread has been that "non-canon" really is too broad to rule yay or ney on so we need to break it up.  And in general, it should be broken up.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
If we do that then you'll probably get an edit war cause the first thing I'm doing is taking down the non-canon page and organising things how the majority wanted it.

What majority, though? As near as I can tell, the poll is a toss-up and we have maybe six people posting frequently in the thread who could even approve the idea.

That being said, I think the idea about arranging non-canon stuff so that its source is clear makes alot of sense (See that errant non-canon planet entry). Assuming that's what you're talking about, I agree with it.

Let me get this straight. We're making this great resource for newbies to understand the community better. Then we put in information that is very likely to be misconstrued by a fairly large percentage of them and that is somehow going to be their fault? :wtf:

The solution if to try to avod that happening in the first place. If you're perfectly willing to let new people come in and get completely the wrong idea about the SM why bother with an entry at all. Far better to have them simply ask on the forum and get a sensible answer than allow them to go onto the wiki and get the wrong idea.

(Quote)

It's not subtle. Quote a few people can see full well that newbies are going to get it wrong. You're acting like only one or two people will ever get it wrong and their opinions shouldn't count anyway. I don't see how I can possible accept that conclusion if I can see such an easy way to avoid it.

It's not "very likely". All you've been offer for evidence for that is by claiming that people will misread the large warning that states 'This article is not canon' as saying that the article is canon. :wtf: Even if someone doesn't speak English natively, the prefix "non-" is common enough that they'll probably know it.

However, if there is some wording that clarifies that it is indeed non-canon, and not part of some covert movement to try and subvert non-canon writings into canon, why not use it into the wiki for the non-canon notice?

I don't think that just because someone might misunderstand an article we should leave it out of the wiki. To me, that's really a non-factor...if there's a better, clearer, or more concise way to say something then that should go in...but we can't cover every zany idea that someone might get from reading an article. 'If you build something that is foolproof, somebody will just build a better fool'

More stuff, in reply to other posts:

Leaving new theories out of the wiki is fair because it will apply to all theories. Basically, I'd say that if someone bothers to add a theory to the wiki, it probably deserves to be in. Cue "Capella BBQ". It's a joke theory - it's not even to a non-canon point because the author didn't intend it as a serious theory. If we're adding community in-jokes and such, that's fine, but I'm not sure we want to lump that in with the discussion here.

We should change the "Non-canon" category to something else, IMHO, if we are not going to include campaign articles. If there is going to be some problem with people assuming that something is fan-canon, excluding things from the non-canon page that are non-canon are going to cause it. I can easily see somebody checking the 'non-canon' page, finding that Inferno wasn't on it, and proceding ahead with the assumption that Inferno is actually accepted as canon because it isn't listed under even a sub-section of "Non-canon". Although as of now it looks like user made campaigns are in that category, but are not under debate.
-C

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
Would it help if I reset the poll and renamed the options to something different? I've seen some opinions change as I've skimmed over the page...
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
That's the crux of the issue really - non-canon needs to be broken up. So, what do we have?

The Shivan Manifesto isn't really fan fiction, as I understand the term. It's fan speculation. Wiki pages can be placed into more than one categorym so perhaps we should do away with the non-canon and replace it with more specific categories, general fan speculation, campaign speculatio (CAMPAIGN NAME) etc.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
Feel free Sandwich.

It's not "very likely". All you've been offer for evidence for that is by claiming that people will misread the large warning that states 'This article is not canon' as saying that the article is canon. :wtf: Even if someone doesn't speak English natively, the prefix "non-" is common enough that they'll probably know it.


Putting non-canon on the top of the page won't stop someone from assuming that something is part of an extended canon. We've already seen that with people assuming that the SM or Inferno is canon. I doubt any of them thought that :v: wrote it but they assumed that there was large acceptance for them and therefore they are part of an extended canon. This non-canon page suffers from exactly that problem, especially when there are no other theories to put against it.

Besides I've already suggested including it in a user campaigns sub category and not one single person has suggested that they'd be willing to put it under their campaign. What does that say about the theory? Says to me that it deserves an entry in the freespace lingo section and little more.

Quote
However, if there is some wording that clarifies that it is indeed non-canon, and not part of some covert movement to try and subvert non-canon writings into canon, why not use it into the wiki for the non-canon notice?


It's not the wording. Its the idea of a big non-canon section in the first place. None of those ideas contain critisism so they all look like sensible ideas. Even if you don't get people thinking that they are part of an extended canon (and I really think you will) you'll get people going to the wiki and grabbing every single idea because they assume that they are all well thought out and contain no errors.
 Wikipedia goes to great (some might say stupid) lengths to appear unbiased in its articles but the non-canon section you're envisioning would contain article after article which had nothing but the reasons why the theory is good. You agreed with me that the  comment in the Lupus Nebula entry that it was the best theory so far was something that shouldn't be there but without a competing theory present or critisism of the current entry it's already implied. Someone new to the wiki will go there, see the Lupus Nebula entry and assume its the best theory simply due to the fact that no one says that there is any other theory.
 Once you have everyone coming to the wiki, seeing one theory and assuming that it must be the best one the entire community can come up with it's not a huge step from "Best the community has come up with" to "One with community backing"
 You can stamp non-canon over the top all you like but it won't help one iota with the above problem. Putting a giant disclaimer at the  top of the article saying that the article in no way is an endorsement of that theory might help but it looks ugly and wastes a lot of space.

Sticking everything under user-made campaigns sidesteps the problem. Anything found underneath MindGames is obviously endorsed by MindGames but it isn't clearly endorsed by anyone else so it's much harder to make the assumption that this is the best theory the community has to offer.

Quote
I don't think that just because someone might misunderstand an article we should leave it out of the wiki. To me, that's really a non-factor...if there's a better, clearer, or more concise way to say something then that should go in...but we can't cover every zany idea that someone might get from reading an article. 'If you build something that is foolproof, somebody will just build a better fool'


Of course people will still make stupid assumptions about what's in the wiki. But I'm proposing a simple way to avoid a lot of that. As I say if no campaign wants to take on a theory then why the **** is it in the wiki in the first place if no one thinks it's worth anything?

Quote
I can easily see somebody checking the 'non-canon' page, finding that Inferno wasn't on it, and proceding ahead with the assumption that Inferno is actually accepted as canon because it isn't listed under even a sub-section of "Non-canon". Although as of now it looks like user made campaigns are in that category, but are not under debate.

User-made campaigns deserve their own category. You can stick a warning at the top of the page if you wish. I don't think sticking them under non-canon is going to prevent what you describe in the slightest. Anyone dumb enough to assume Inferno is canon despite the fact that anywhere he looked there were other user-campaigns too did so on the grounds that they thought Inferno was more complete, bigger or simply better than all the others and therefore should be canon, not due to the fact that they didn't know any others existed.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
I think that having a 'Campaigns' non-canon subsection (or just plain section) makes sense, with anything else being moved to a 'Miscellania' non-canon section for now. Due to the relative paucity of any widely-known Freespace fan-fiction I don't think that this section will need much reorganization for awhile (or whatever you want to call it-  'non-canon information based on or in the FS universe that isn't tied to a specific campaign or is tied to the retail campaigns'). Let project leaders have end-decision over what goes in their campaign section (as long as it's factual, and not "MY CAMPAIGN IS THE BESTEST CAMPAIGN EVAH!!111!1" :p). For the rest of the stuff, control would rest with Concerned Forumers Like You.

Breaking stuff up into "Campaign Speculation" or "Campaign Characters" or "Campaign Ships" would just get needlessly annoying...we can always standardize the names for similar topics ("Inferno Shivan Origins" "Derelict Shivan Origins")

I'd actually like to see some fan stories and stuff in there as well. I don't know if it should be in there - but seeing as how there's no real central repository for that sort of thing, it might incite people to write more Freespace stories, since it'd be more likely that their work would get read.

Quote

Putting non-canon on the top of the page won't stop someone from assuming that something is part of an extended canon. We've already seen that with people assuming that the SM or Inferno is canon. I doubt any of them thought that wrote it but they assumed that there was large acceptance for them and therefore they are part of an extended canon. This non-canon page suffers from exactly that problem, especially when there are no other theories to put against it.

Besides I've already suggested including it in a user campaigns sub category and not one single person has suggested that they'd be willing to put it under their campaign. What does that say about the theory? Says to me that it deserves an entry in the freespace lingo section and little more.

We haven't seen it before, because Inferno and the Shivan Manifesto haven't been in the wiki. Like you said, those people probably saw the wide acceptance for Inferno or the Manifesto on te forums, and didn't see anyone pointing out that they were non-canon, because it's just an unspoken agreement that :V: stuff is canon. I doubt they would've actually seen the wiki pages unless someone directed to them (and written them up), but if they had, I think the "THIS IS NON-CANON" notice would've made them wary of going and posting "THIS IS CANON".

I think what it says is that people honestly didn't use the Manifesto to write their campaign backstory. When you're doing creative stuff, you try and come up with creative ideas; basing Shivans action-for-action on the Manifesto would make things boring once people figured it out. For all we know, Inferno could be based on the Manifesto. :D

Quote
It's not the wording. Its the idea of a big non-canon section in the first place. None of those ideas contain critisism so they all look like sensible ideas. Even if you don't get people thinking that they are part of an extended canon (and I really think you will) you'll get people going to the wiki and grabbing every single idea because they assume that they are all well thought out and contain no errors.
That's perfectly alright, as long as those people don't have misconceptions as to whether or not the theories are right or not. If someone writes a story or makes a campaign on the Manifesto just because it sounds cool, I don't see why we should put up a page full of criticism to discourage them. Besides, once they notice that the theories contradict each other, they'll have to do critical thinking.

Quote
Wikipedia goes to great (some might say stupid) lengths to appear unbiased in its articles but the non-canon section you're envisioning would contain article after article which had nothing but the reasons why the theory is good. You agreed with me that the  comment in the Lupus Nebula entry that it was the best theory so far was something that shouldn't be there but without a competing theory present or critisism of the current entry it's already implied. Someone new to the wiki will go there, see the Lupus Nebula entry and assume its the best theory simply due to the fact that no one says that there is any other theory.

I can see that being a very nifty bit of information for someone writing a fanfic, that they would otherwise never find because it's buried in the forums. Since it's non-canon, it's up to them to decide whether or not to use it.

Quote
Once you have everyone coming to the wiki, seeing one theory and assuming that it must be the best one the entire community can come up with it's not a huge step from "Best the community has come up with" to "One with community backing"
 You can stamp non-canon over the top all you like but it won't help one iota with the above problem. Putting a giant disclaimer at the  top of the article saying that the article in no way is an endorsement of that theory might help but it looks ugly and wastes a lot of space.

So what? It can look ugly and waste a lot of space. This is the first I've heard that articles had to meet some standard of beauty in order to be accepted into the wiki. Besides, if it blended seamlessly into the rest of the page it wouldn't be very good at getting people's attention.

If it's not going to help, I don't think it'll hurt. Why would we stamp a non-canon warning on a page, if we thought that it was somehow above ordinary non-canon?
-C

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
That's the crux of the issue really - non-canon needs to be broken up. So, what do we have?

The Shivan Manifesto isn't really fan fiction, as I understand the term. It's fan speculation. Wiki pages can be placed into more than one categorym so perhaps we should do away with the non-canon and replace it with more specific categories, general fan speculation, campaign speculatio (CAMPAIGN NAME) etc.


Don't we have Gen.FS. forums for that?  I mean, the wiki is supposed to be for reference, isn't it?  And isn't speculation just (effectively) a discussion topic?

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
In this, specific case, however, the article is about an established document that discusses fan speculation. It slips right between the cracks of a wiki article and a forum post.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
In this, specific case, however, the article is about an established document that discusses fan speculation. It slips right between the cracks of a wiki article and a forum post.

All discussion begins with some form of proposal, either a question or an answer to one; all the SM does is make a larger-than-usual version of the latter.  I mean, if you look at the 'do Shivans eat' thread on Gen.FS., it's not all that different from the SM in terms of its content.

 

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
IMHO the idea of leaving the stuff to Gen.FS. is not feasible at the moment as search is borked unless some one creates a sticky filled with fan theory links. I mean if the idea is not to hide the fan theories out of sight under tons of more recent posts.
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Offline Sandwich

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
Ok, what should I reset the poll to? What options, I mean? As I understand things, something like "Canon", "...plus User-made Campaign/MOD info", "...plus Theories" or something?
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
Resetting the poll in the middle of a thread isn't a good idea IMHO.  I recommend closing this thread and starting a new one, with the terms under consideration properly defined.

 

Offline TopAce

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
*TopAce supports this idea*
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
In this, specific case, however, the article is about an established document that discusses fan speculation. It slips right between the cracks of a wiki article and a forum post.

All discussion begins with some form of proposal, either a question or an answer to one; all the SM does is make a larger-than-usual version of the latter.  I mean, if you look at the 'do Shivans eat' thread on Gen.FS., it's not all that different from the SM in terms of its content.

Well, it's not an attempt to create some kind of single entity that holds together; it's meant to be a discussion thread. Maybe if people are still referencing it in a month or two; the SM was brought up two years post facto and was also requested to be included in the wiki. It's also been mentioned in various threads since. When something hangs around in the popular consciousness for that long, it does seem like it should be documented in some form.

Interesting note - the version I was able to find in the Wikipedia is a version that was revised based on forum posts, so it's actually gone through a phase of criticism and revisement. I haven't been able to find the original for comparison w/o search, Antares might have it on file but he seems to have been away since Dec. 16th.

Goob + Sandy: I think the topic under consideration is:
"non-canon information/speculation based on or in the FS universe that isn't tied to a specific campaign or is tied to the retail campaigns". I don't know if that includes fanfics or articles on things like Freespace 3/Freespace 3 and Derek Smart.
-C

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Non-Canon Material In The Wiki
Okay so can I delete all the pages I find unacceptable then?