[Polpolion]

It's most likely a gun similar to the maxim or any other laser. Don't forget that this is the in the future about 3 and a quarter centuries. A gernade launcher is highly outdated.


The machine guns were  one of two things:

1) Do not fire ballistic projectiles (bullets)

2) Fire bullets with some sort of device that absorbs the recoil, allowing it to be one handed.

Also, it would need to be very light for one handed, which would severly limit ballistic ammunition.

[aldo_14]

*Finds out that his 1:1 copy of his damaged FS1 CD2 and his corrected backup of FS1 CD2 swapped cases*
*Watches hallfight*

Ok, 4 of the soldiers have machine guns (one handed)
1 has a bigger two handed weapon, that has a grenade launcher-like explosive muzzle flash, and explodes upon impact. *watches again* However, there is no visible explosion up until the shivan dies. All impacts from the "grenade launcher" are off screen as far as I could see, but a small bit of the impact animation can be seen, it's white, like the muzzle flash. The last one is, however, a big yellow explosion, so it is likely that the Shivan exploded.

Are you sure that's not just impact sparks from bullets, though?  I'm sort of wondering myself how much use a grenade launcher (or any explosive weapon) would be in that sort of situation - not fast moving Shivans, but in terms of a zero gravity, constricted environment on a presumably damaged ship.

I don't know what a grenade launcher muzzle flash looks like, so I'll take your word for it; I didn't even know they had a muzzle flash, I thought it was gas-compressed launching or something.

*watches with sound* I couldn't hear the small booms when the "grenade launcher" was fired (kept the volume down, it's 0.33 here).
It's possible that the power-down like sound that stops when the Shivan is killed was not the launcher.

I think it sounds like a rotary sound, but it could be some Shivan roar (not roar, exactly), as it's quite eerie.  Hard to say, definately.

Perhaps the Grenade is rocket propelled...or something.

Yeah, but it's also quite fast, it's not like a slow rocket launcher. IMO it's a large cannon, like the Maxim. That would also explain why there's no big explosion when it hits, only a small impact animation. It's also possible that it's an ML-16 or something similar

I don't think so, for the reasons below - even though the model is IIRC quite a bit like the models for ship primaries.  Mainly because the cutscene script from the ref bible doesn't mention a laser-wielding trooper, and that'd seem an unecessary detail to add unless it had some purpose.

It's most likely a gun similar to the maxim or any other laser. Don't forget that this is the in the future about 3 and a quarter centuries. A gernade launcher is highly outdated.

The machine guns were  one of two things:

1) Do not fire ballistic projectiles (bullets)

2) Fire bullets with some sort of device that absorbs the recoil, allowing it to be one handed.

Also, it would need to be very light for one handed, which would severly limit ballistic ammunition.

RE:1; I believe one of the V employees did say they were ballistic weapons, as there were size issues with a power supply for portable laser weapons.   I can't dredge up the post justnow, though - it was on the FDL (http://www.descent-freespace.com/lists/fdl/) mailing list.  Um, if you find it, you'll know

2; That would seem likely.  Although I think they might hold the barrel anyways, and IIRC it fits over the whole forearm, so that might affect how much of an affect recoil has.  I don't suppose anyone can enlighten me as to any differences upon firing a gun in zero-g versus normal gravity? 

I'm thinking weight probably is not an issue, if the weapon is being used in a zero-g environment (assuming this is a weapon that was designed or altered for use in this type of space ops, of course); an issue would be the bulk of ammunition, although it's hard to judge given the size of weapon and that we don't know how much of that internal space is for ammo and how much for the various firing, etc, mechanisms.

[knn]

The woman with the big gun has a number 12 on her helmet, so I'll call her No. 12
I watched the cutscene again, with full sound this time. I still can't make out the individual sound of the big gun, but I can see her hands moving. It's definitely her firing, the others all have machine guns and those are recoilles, while the big gun has recoil. I'll convert the video to bmp's and post some. Maybe the machine-gun like sound was the weapon - she may've just powered it down after she killed the shivan (i.e. she let go of the trigger)

[knn]

That splash is probably from No. 12's gun, it's bigger than the others (also a small error)

No. 12 firing, the splash is already on the shivan, so the weapon hits almost instantaneously
Two frames later:

Next shot:

This time she misses


The final shot

Look at this! These are frame 3221 and 3222:


Something's flying away. A part of the Shivan?

And some smoke, looks like it's coming from inside:

[FireCrack]

Hmm... that looks like evidence enough for me that it's the shivan exploding. THat big plate would never fit in the gun, and the shivan appears cracked pen in the last shot.

[watsisname]

It seems pretty clear that the explosion was in fact from the Shivan's death and not from a grenade.   This is pretty conclusive evidence to suggest that Shivans have some sort of powercell or reactor kind of thing located on or inside them, but as for exactly what its purpose/functionality is is conjecture.  Personally I would think that it powers the Shivan's weapons (the beam weapon and the energy blade sort of thing) but it could possibly be a source of power for the Shivan itself. 

More on topic, I don't think any of us can say for certain what Shivans eat, if anything.

[Desert Ease]

Is it possible they live off the energy of the ship? Like a ship would have various hubs with which they......feed off of.  Thus the lack of a reason to take recources from planets.

[MicroPsycho]

It's most likely a gun similar to the maxim or any other laser. Don't forget that this is the in the future about 3 and a quarter centuries. A gernade launcher is highly outdated.


The machine guns were  one of two things:

1) Do not fire ballistic projectiles (bullets)

2) Fire bullets with some sort of device that absorbs the recoil, allowing it to be one handed.

Also, it would need to be very light for one handed, which would severly limit ballistic ammunition.

There are many small, armour penetrating weapons today, that could be held in one hand (not to mention in zero-g, supported by the fore arm), just look at the P90, MP7 or even some of the Mp5
series of weapons.

I though it always looked like the shivan got too close and the marine shot some sort of explosive/high powered weapon (be it laser or grenade or whatever). And things don't need mass amounts of energy/reactive material within them to explode. A person could explode if hit with an M203, not to mention that the shivan has over lapping armour plating and such for a 'grenade' to get into. and if the shivan exploded from internal energy, I think there would be more damage than just being 'cracked open'.

I think we may need a poll...

[Flipside]

In Zero G (if we are taking the video literally, and not just eye-candy) then an explosion from outside the carapace would have thrown a great deal of 'Dead Shivan' backwards, the fact it remains motionsless suggests that the explosion was internal and forced most of the mass straight downwards, this meaning it hit the floor and stayed where it was. Even then it doesn't actually obey the laws of physics all that well, but hey, it's an in-game video

[Charismatic]

Is it possible they live off the energy of the ship? Like a ship would have various hubs with which they......feed off of. Thus the lack of a reason to take recources from planets.

It could be they have been in space so long they have totaly adapted to not having planets or relying on them. So they just dont need to take all the effort of manning and securing and controling a planet, when they could just sit and watch it from up above and have all their manpower already armed, off the ground, and ready to engage.

[WMCoolmon]

I dunno, the impression I get from that is that the gun was some sort of armor-piercing weapon (Or wasn't, but acted that way at close range). The shot hit the Shivan, was slowed by the armor, got lodged inside and then the Shivan exploded - due to the round detonatiing.

It makes sense to have one team member with an armor-piercing gun, actually. You probably don't want to be blowing chunks out of the ship if you can help it, but there still might be some need for such a gun. (The Terrans didn't actually know what Shivans were like at that point, IIRC. "What the hell is that?")

Looking at the body of the Shivan there don't appear to be any wound points that would suggest that anything vital was hit or even punctured though...*idly wonders if the Shivans have a self-destruct mechanism* Seems kind of poor construction if they blow up after being jostled around.

Friggin' MVE compression.


I dunno, it seems kind of odd to build yourself with an explosive stomach.

[knn]

Yes, but that power source powers the beam weapon, it has to be volatile if it's that powerful.
BTW, I didn't post the frame where the explosion starts, and I'm not going to, because I deleted the bmps, but the explosion starts from the outside. It can't be the "grenade" exploding, since it didn't explode before. Maybe V decided to do it this way to prevent clipping problems with the animation (note that the part flying away appears completely in a split second, between the two frames, not gradually, as it should in real life).
As for the weapon, that ring of smoke one frame after the muzzle flash reminds me of something, I think it's like the mass driver from Descent3 (it was a sniper like weapon there).

Looking at the body of the Shivan there don't appear to be any wound points that would suggest that anything vital was hit or even punctured though

Yes but No 12 hit a leg of the Shivan in both frames I posted (left and rear leg I think), what looks like an armor plate. Even if it was an armor piercing weapon, that wouldn't cause an explosion. The third time she might've hit a weak spot

[aldo_14]

One question is perhaps whether Volition could be arsed modelling damage for a hectic 30-odd second segment?  Or whether it looks better to have an explosion or just the thing slumping down.......  cos I do sense the risk we're (and I include myself here) being a) overly anal and b) forgetting it is just a short piece of entertaining fightery video.

NB: knn, what WMC is suggesting is that the round could have penetrated the carapace, lodged in the body, and then exploded, like an armour-piercing anti-tank round would (er, I think it does, anyways).

[WMCoolmon]

Yeah, it is kind of being over-anal. It's what we do.

I thought about watching body-langage - ie does the soldier fling her arm up before, or after the Shivan explodes - but it'd be hard to tell if she was doing it because she knew the Shivan would explode, or just because she was instinctively trying to protect herself.

[knn]

One question is perhaps whether Volition could be arsed modelling damage for a hectic 30-odd second segment?  Or whether it looks better to have an explosion or just the thing slumping down.......  cos I do sense the risk we're (and I include myself here) being a) overly anal and b) forgetting it is just a short piece of entertaining fightery video.

Yes, you're right. I say we ignore the fact that the explosion starts from the outside in the video. The smoke is coming from inside after all.

NB: knn, what WMC is suggesting is that the round could have penetrated the carapace, lodged in the body, and then exploded, like an armour-piercing anti-tank round would (er, I think it does, anyways).

I know, but she fired half a dozen times before, and it did not explode immediately like the last time she fired.

Yeah, it is kind of being over-anal. It's what we do.

I thought about watching body-langage - ie does the soldier fling her arm up before, or after the Shivan explodes - but it'd be hard to tell if she was doing it because she knew the Shivan would explode, or just because she was instinctively trying to protect herself.

After, her weapon is twohanded

[Polpolion]

*idly wonders if the Shivans have a self-destruct mechanism*

More than likely not. Somewhere said about the GTI doing experiments on live shivans, so if they did have a self-destruct device, they would have been too stupid to use it.

I don't think shivans explode when they die, because when we boarded the Icene, we were able to Identify the remains as shivans.

[Flipside]

I think bits of carapace and odd legs laying about would sort of give the game away there

[NGTM-1R]

But this assumes that Shivans use a standard genetic process to create cells. If indeed they are Bio-Engineered, they might require materials, but not need the injest them. After all, do Shivans grow? Have we seen young Shivans, Old Shivans, different sized Shivans even?

The Shivan carapace (and presumably appendages, though this is not explictly stated) are cybernetic in nature and so presumably constructed from standardized parts. One should not, therefore, draw conclusions based on their external similarities.

It should also be remembered that the only Shivans so far encountered have been aboard combatant craft or combat auxilaries, and so we may very well be seeing only the "warrior class" version of the Shivans. There could be non-cybernetic Shivans or differently augmented ones; we just don't know.

[knn]

*idly wonders if the Shivans have a self-destruct mechanism*

More than likely not. Somewhere said about the GTI doing experiments on live shivans, so if they did have a self-destruct device, they would have been too stupid to use it.

I don't think shivans explode when they die, because when we boarded the Icene, we were able to Identify the remains as shivans.

Cough
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/N-x/003246.jpg
Cough
The outer shell is mostly intact from what we can see in this frame. (The killed Shivan is the one on the bottom of the picture, with the smoke)

But this assumes that Shivans use a standard genetic process to create cells. If indeed they are Bio-Engineered, they might require materials, but not need the injest them. After all, do Shivans grow? Have we seen young Shivans, Old Shivans, different sized Shivans even?

The Shivan carapace (and presumably appendages, though this is not explictly stated) are cybernetic in nature and so presumably constructed from standardized parts. One should not, therefore, draw conclusions based on their external similarities.

It should also be remembered that the only Shivans so far encountered have been aboard combatant craft or combat auxilaries, and so we may very well be seeing only the "warrior class" version of the Shivans. There could be non-cybernetic Shivans or differently augmented ones; we just don't know.

We don't know if they are cybernetic. It's just a possibility stated in the techroom entry. Also, the transport was not a combat craft, but it probably did have a few soldiers, and they would be the first to engage the enemy attempting to board the ship. So you might as well be right.