[karajorma]

It doesn't mean that if Shivans are the most obvious it must have been someone else...

I think you're arguing with me at cross purposes here. I'm not saying that I think another race is where were going but there's no evidence against that so it's a perfectly plausible theory.

Same way that the Starborn in MG are plausible and yet I very much doubt that was what were planning.

[aldo_14]

Well, someone in FS3 would have had ships 'large enough to have a gravity well'*.

*paraphrase

[knn]

I don't think the jumpnode collapse plan proves anything. First of all, it may not work. Their efforts at Knossos subspace portal was a total failure. The baston was nearly destroyed before entering into the node as well.

They blew up the Knossos in Gamma Drac, not the portal. Big difference. The Bastion actually succeeded, and there's some indication in Petrarch's speech that the Nereid succeeded as well ("We sealed of Capella and our people are safe, maybe forever.") Also, Nereid came from Vega, not a Shivan infested system like Capella, and the Shivans never got beyond Capella.

Even if it did work. the shivans are known to be able to open new nodes and/or use uncharted/unstable nodes. Thereofre, the plan is far from fool proof.

All we know is that they used routes unknown to the GTA-PVN in FS1. Those were probably unstable jump nodes. However there's a difference in unstable jump node and destroyed jump node. Detroyed jump nodes can only be reactivated using a Knossos. Yes, the Shivans probably have that technology, so the plan is far from perfect. It is only good as a temporary solution. (and we need the Shivans coming back for another visit in FS3)
But now let's add a supernova to the equation:
a) the star is no more. It's gravity field is no more. You need a sun's gravity for a subspace node*. The shivans therefore did exactly what the GTVA was doing. They sealed off Capella.
b) the new nebula will be quite inhospitable even for Shivan ships for a few hundred or thousand or even more years. (altough might conveniently forget this and allow ships in the nebula a few years later)
The Shivans actually made their job more difficult. They sealed off Capella for a long time (because of b)), while the GTVA would've sealed it of for a few decades. (until the shivans come and build a Knossos).

The destroying of the Capella Sun simply doesn't add up

I recently spoke to someone who finished FS2. His first question was 'Why did the Shivans blow up Capella?'. It does not add up, and this was 's intention. They didn't want just another 'the Shivans come, they kick ass, we're almost dead, but then we discover a way to save our butts (sealing off Capella), and we survive' type story. They added a huge cliffhanger because they wanted players to ask exactly this question, and then buy FS3 just to get the answer. Even if they made the worst space sim and named it FS3, it would be bought by us, who played FS2.

*This is probably not canon, but the only nodes we know of are between two systems. It would also explain why there were Knossos portals in Gamma Drac, the Nebula and the binary system. No sun (& it's gravity field) in Nebula -> No connection to Gamma Drac and Binary system. Sun and black hole in Binary system messing with gravity field (unsure about this one) -> natural nodes can't form

Well, someone in FS3 would have had ships 'large enough to have a gravity well'*.

*paraphrase

Option 1: The GTVA builds a Death Star* and the Shivans, of course, have something bigger
Option 2: The shivans have a huge mothership (it would be like the Lucifer in FS1)

*Babylon 5 is 5 miles long, a bit longer than the Colossus (8+ km), and has a gravity well around it, enough to keep a human body from drifting away if dumped from an airlock ('And The Sky Full Of Stars' IIRC). <length of colossus> / <length of Orion> = 3. <length of Colossus> * 3 = 18 km.

[Geezer]

IIRC Mindgames says the Shivans blew up Capella in order to kill several Starborn that were hanging around it.

MindGames is definitely in the "Shivans-screwed-up-at-Capella" camp.  The Shivan Groupmind was trying to destroy the many Starborn on Capella's surface by using a weapon borrowed from the Ancient's arsenal.  It expected to create a tsunami-like distrubance in Capella's outer layers but didn't understand the actual strength of the weapon.  When it saw the nova starting, it got out what assets it could.  
 

[TrashMan]

MindGames is definitely in the "Shivans-screwed-up-at-Capella" camp.  The Shivan Groupmind was trying to destroy the many Starborn on Capella's surface by using a weapon borrowed from the Ancient's arsenal.  It expected to create a tsunami-like distrubance in Capella's outer layers but didn't understand the actual strength of the weapon.  When it saw the nova starting, it got out what assets it could.  
 

With a fleet of 80 sath's you'd think they could do that easily without blowing the sun.
And an another interesting question - Capella was full of GTVA ship, even some science vessels monitoring the star - how come no one noticed the starborn?

[karajorma]

Cause no one was actually looking IN Capella for them. They do look a lot like the star itself you know so you'd have a problem spotting them. Even if they did spot them it would probably be assumed that they were an effect caused by the Shivan manipulation of subspace.

[aldo_14]

MindGames is definitely in the "Shivans-screwed-up-at-Capella" camp.  The Shivan Groupmind was trying to destroy the many Starborn on Capella's surface by using a weapon borrowed from the Ancient's arsenal.  It expected to create a tsunami-like distrubance in Capella's outer layers but didn't understand the actual strength of the weapon.  When it saw the nova starting, it got out what assets it could. 
 

With a fleet of 80 sath's you'd think they could do that easily without blowing the sun.
And an another interesting question - Capella was full of GTVA ship, even some science vessels monitoring the star - how come no one noticed the starborn?

When you're talking about the Starborn, you're talking about beings that are close to gods; beyond human conception or understanding - of a level of existence that, to humans and vasudans, makes them seem as if part of the fabric of the universe.  It's like, why don't we know if other life exists, even though we look out with Seti and soforth?  Because the tools we have aren't able to see far enough.  Same for the Starborn, except it's not distance but comprehension that is the barrier.

At least that's my memory of it.

NB: not worth assuming what is 'easy' in terms of the 80 Sathani; this is the realm of Mindgames canon, and if they couldn't achieve it with 80 Sathani, it's a hard and fast fact.

[Unknown Target]

Well it's not like they noticed them before

[aldo_14]

Well it's not like they noticed them before

The GTVA couldn't find it's own arse with both hands tied behind its back, going by their managing to somehow miss a giant, several thousand year old subspace portal during a survey mission to an otherwise empty system.

[Nuclear1]

Capella was full of GTVA ship, even some science vessels monitoring the star - how come no one noticed the starborn?

The GTVA was more concentrated on studying the abnormal readings being given off by the Sathanes subspace weapon. Plus, attempting to stop the greatest enemy ever known to humanity with an untested, high-risk plan was probably more on the minds of the GTVA than searching for a god-like race that no one had known existed.

[NGTM-1R]

It's a star. We don't see into them very well. The outer layers effectively block our ability to see the inner ones. We have theories that can produce workable rough computer models of what goes on inside, but we can't prove a thing, because we can't see that deep.

More to the point, simply recognizing the Starborn as a form of life requires a massive leap of faith; they bear no resemblence in any way, shape, or form to any other life the GTVA knows of. It's entirely possible the GTVA has seen the Starborne. They simply don't recognize them for what they are.

[Goober5000]

The GTVA couldn't find it's own arse with both hands tied behind its back, going by their managing to somehow miss a giant, several thousand year old subspace portal during a survey mission to an otherwise empty system.

To be fair, it wasn't activated then.  It may have just shown up on scanners as a giant rock.

[wgemini]

They blew up the Knossos in Gamma Drac, not the portal. Big difference. The Bastion actually succeeded, and there's some indication in Petrarch's speech that the Nereid succeeded as well ("We sealed of Capella and our people are safe, maybe forever.") Also, Nereid came from Vega, not a Shivan infested system like Capella, and the Shivans never got beyond Capella.

It's still highly risky. Remember Bastion barely made it (largely because of the almighty alpha 1) and it only happened a couple of hours before, the covert operation would have been underway already (which is unlikely to suceed anyway, so it's just a backup plan).

All we know is that they used routes unknown to the GTA-PVN in FS1. Those were probably unstable jump nodes. However there's a difference in unstable jump node and destroyed jump node. Detroyed jump nodes can only be reactivated using a Knossos. Yes, the Shivans probably have that technology, so the plan is far from perfect. It is only good as a temporary solution. (and we need the Shivans coming back for another visit in FS3)
But now let's add a supernova to the equation:
a) the star is no more. It's gravity field is no more. You need a sun's gravity for a subspace node*. The shivans therefore did exactly what the GTVA was doing. They sealed off Capella.
b) the new nebula will be quite inhospitable even for Shivan ships for a few hundred or thousand or even more years. (altough might conveniently forget this and allow ships in the nebula a few years later)
The Shivans actually made their job more difficult. They sealed off Capella for a long time (because of b)), while the GTVA would've sealed it of for a few decades. (until the shivans come and build a Knossos).

At end of fs1, alpha 1 made clear that Shivans can repair the node to Sol. Plus, it's kind of my point, Shivans made life a lot harder for themselves by blowing up the Capella Sun.

I recently spoke to someone who finished FS2. His first question was 'Why did the Shivans blow up Capella?'. It does not add up, and this was 's intention. They didn't want just another 'the Shivans come, they kick ass, we're almost dead, but then we discover a way to save our butts (sealing off Capella), and we survive' type story. They added a huge cliffhanger because they wanted players to ask exactly this question, and then buy FS3 just to get the answer. Even if they made the worst space sim and named it FS3, it would be bought by us, who played FS2.

*This is probably not canon, but the only nodes we know of are between two systems. It would also explain why there were Knossos portals in Gamma Drac, the Nebula and the binary system. No sun (& it's gravity field) in Nebula -> No connection to Gamma Drac and Binary system. Sun and black hole in Binary system messing with gravity field (unsure about this one) -> natural nodes can't form

Well, if it's simply a plot tool, then it's quite lame. It actually made things a lot harder for as well since they would have to explain why the Shivans would even bother coming back. On the other hand, the SOC solution would be a lot more intriguing. Just think about it, human/Vasudan rights advocates found out about the truth. GTVA is thrown into turmoil....

[Ace]

Keep in mind that the Shivans are the *symptom* of a bigger problem.

What's the title of the series?

What is the title mean in the setting?

Why is subspace itself so important that the Shivans would attempt to destroy any race that utilizes it?

Was the Shivan clemency after the Great War, and the Battle of Capella just part of a larger scheme?

All FS games deal with sacrifice. The end of the series means the ultimate sacrifice, sacrifice of its namesake.

The question is how will humanity turn from being on the brink of finally destroying the Shivans to giving up the stars....

[wgemini]

Giving up the stars? why? Terrans will never do it.

[aldo_14]

Well, if it's simply a plot tool, then it's quite lame. It actually made things a lot harder for as well since they would have to explain why the Shivans would even bother coming back. On the other hand, the SOC solution would be a lot more intriguing. Just think about it, human/Vasudan rights advocates found out about the truth. GTVA is thrown into turmoil....

It's supposed to be hard to understand; that's the point of a plot twist, the only difference is that we haven't seen the aftermath.  But Freespace has always about the Shivans agent provocateurs, and I can't see Volition just shuffling them into the corner, outsmarted and technologically outgunned by the GTVA.  It's not as if command expected a nova in the last mission, after all; otherwise they'd surely have pulled out more combat ships to blockade Vega-Capella (and why would 80 Sathani gather round the node, transmitting that strange subspace pulse signal otherwise?).

Plus we know destroying the nodes - star or no star - wasn't a permanent barrier against the Shivans invading; Command admitted as much in the brief, noting the Shivans subspace abilities.  Plus command stated the node destruction would have been total in the brief for the Bastion/Nereids' missions.

(I think it was called the Nereid on the Vega node, anyways).

[Spicious]

Plus, it's kind of my point, Shivans made life a lot harder for themselves by blowing up the Capella Sun.

That relies on the assumption that the Shivans decieded to destroy Capella because of the GTVA.

Well, if it's simply a plot tool, then it's quite lame. It actually made things a lot harder for as well since they would have to explain why the Shivans would even bother coming back. On the other hand, the SOC solution would be a lot more intriguing. Just think about it, human/Vasudan rights advocates found out about the truth. GTVA is thrown into turmoil....

I think the SOC having the technology to cause supernovae is more of a plot hole than mysterious Shivan motives.

[TrashMan]

When you're talking about the Starborn, you're talking about beings that are close to gods; beyond human conception or understanding - of a level of existence that, to humans and vasudans, makes them seem as if part of the fabric of the universe.  It's like, why don't we know if other life exists, even though we look out with Seti and soforth?  Because the tools we have aren't able to see far enough.  Same for the Starborn, except it's not distance but comprehension that is the barrier.

If there's one thing I hate about Sci-Fi then it's beings like that. Everything in FS looks like hard-proven scientific fact compared to that. I like a healthy dose of realism, but to each his own I guess....

[aldo_14]

If there's one thing I hate about Sci-Fi then it's beings like that. Everything in FS looks like hard-proven scientific fact compared to that. I like a healthy dose of realism, but to each his own I guess....

you do?  I'd never have guessed.

Anyways, it's not like there's anything inherently unrealistic about multi-dimensional beings; the odds are that any alien race we ever encounter will probably be near inconceivable to us because of evolutionary differences.

[Prophet]

...the odds are that any alien race we ever encounter will probably be near inconceivable to us because of evolutionary differences.

No. It will be the average size of a human and have ripples on it's forhead and/or nose. And possibly a funny coloured skin. Plus english being the intergalactic standart laguage, every alien speaks it fluently... Shame on you aldo, you should know better. 


The Starborn are a very interesting issue, but I agree that they don't really fit in with FS. Regardless, I would gladly play mindgames should I ever get my hands on it...