[boewolf]

Tsunami bombs were brought in to action after the start of the Great war. Before that it was pretty much cap versus cap, with fighters trying to tip the balance. Capships didn't have to fear that a single bomber wings comes by and *puf*, another 5000 lives lost. Remember that Vasudan cargo depot in the beginning of FS1? After its "liberation", the GTC Orf stayed to guard it alone. Because if attacked, it had every chance of holding the fort until friendly fightersupport could be deployed.
During the T-V war fleet battles were careful powerstruggles, like the FS2 intro. As in FS2 its more like "Full speed ahead! *beam* *beam* *beam* Whew, we won!" In FS1 fighters really had the time to make a difference, and since the battles lasted longer, outmanouvering your opponent was more important

Hence the ability to fire at least two heavy and two normal turrets in any direction.  Whilst a bomber wing right behind the engines would be a major pain.  A cap ship right behind would be nothing too much of a worry.  (Based of the Fenris ability to fire its rear turrets backwards).

EDIT

Oh and by the way I have finished the levels of detail and almost finished the debrees.  As I can't install freespace at the moment would someone like to finish this one?

[Wanderer]

I think bombers and bombs were present at the FS1 era or rather long before FS1 era.. Just read FS1 tech descriptions of for example PVB Amun and Osiris. So bombs or atleast very capable bombers were available long before Shivans arrived and they were able to destroy Orion class vessels.

[Turalyon]

They were but noth with those bombs we know as Helios etc ^^

My 2 cents on the pic. It almost looks exactly like an Orion. Can you put an Orion next to it to see the size difference?

[bfobar]

Tsunami bombs were brought in to action after the start of the Great war. Before that it was pretty much cap versus cap, with fighters trying to tip the balance. Capships didn't have to fear that a single bomber wings comes by and *puf*, another 5000 lives lost. Remember that Vasudan cargo depot in the beginning of FS1? After its "liberation", the GTC Orf stayed to guard it alone. Because if attacked, it had every chance of holding the fort until friendly fightersupport could be deployed.
During the T-V war fleet battles were careful powerstruggles, like the FS2 intro. As in FS2 its more like "Full speed ahead! *beam* *beam* *beam* Whew, we won!" In FS1 fighters really had the time to make a difference, and since the battles lasted longer, outmanouvering your opponent was more important

The tsunami had to have precursurs. With no shields though, the tactics would have to be send in 1 wave of light bomber ro strips off some turrets so the second wave of heavy bomber can release big bombs with a reasonable chance of hitting. shields give bomber pilots the option to charge in and drop at point blank. pre shields, they must drop smaller ordinance further back, but im sure we can assume that the GTA and PVN at least had fusion bombs in the megaton range.

[Turalyon]

Remember, at the beginning of FS1 you didn't even have lock-on missiles. You only had tempests and rockeyes.

[Wanderer]

With same logic we could say that there can be no bombs or any aspect seeking missiles existing in GTVAs arsenal at the beginning of the FS2 as player has nothing else than tempests and rockeyes at his disposal and even in the techroom you have only those two secondaries listed. Clearly it means that all the tech from FS1 era was lost...

I hope you dont mind a little sarcasm

And btw FS1 had furies and MX-50s...

[Prophet]

Well there must have been heavy weapons against big targets. And you might call them bombs. I admit that. But they must have been considerably weaker than tsunami (or powerful but very large). Anywy, bombers were not capshipkillers as they are in FS2. They were totally in support role (important role I might add). I'd imagine the maina armament against caps was heavy dumbfire rockets.

There alse must have been aspect seekers during T-V war. But were porpably considered to be luxury. Most ordanance was propably heat seekers and dumbfires.

[karajorma]

Okay this dicussion should be split off really cause it's distracting from boewolf's work.

That said.

The Ursa is the first bomber designed specifically for the purpose of annihilating capital ships.  It carries a massive payload and is the only bomber in the GTA which can equip the Harbinger Bomb.  Strong shielding and hull make the Ursa very difficult to destroy.

and

The Medusa is the standard attack bomber in the GTA.  Its strong shielding and large secondary capacity make it the favored attack craft against cruiser class targets.  As the first bomber to carry the Tsunami bomb, the Medusa is considered the staple of any bomber pilots career.

Notice when these two ships come into service? Seems to me that before shielding appeared it was capital ships that killed other caps and not bombers. The low number of losses of capships seems to agree with this.

[Prophet]

Notice when these two ships come into service? Seems to me that before shielding appeared it was capital ships that killed other caps and not bombers. The low number of losses of capships seems to agree with this.

That's a very good point I didn't thought of. Without shields, flying a bombercraft near capships is quite risky. This explains why early vasudan bombers are huge and heavily armoured, likely making them expensive, and therefore rarely deployed. But fighters on the other hand are able to make strikes agoinst capships due to their superior speed...

[Wanderer]

Agreed, but if you read this

The Orion is the capital ship of the GTA.  Measuring a frightening 2.1 kilometers in length, the cost to build one of these far outweighs the cost of paying the crew of this ship for 3 years.  There is no more important symbol of Terran Pride than a ship like the Galatea or the Intrepid cruising past a colonized planet, patrolling the system and ensuring safety.  In the course of the 14 year war, very few of these have ever been lost, making the destruction of an Orion a truly horrible defeat.

and this

The Amun is the Vasudans heaviest bomber class ship.  It carries a massive payload and has been responsible for the destruction of at least 3 Orion class destroyers in the past 2 years.  Fortunately, it is slow and has low maneuverability, making it an easy target for our fighters.  Fighter pilots should be wary of the two turrets on this ship: they are not to be ignored.

Very few have ever been lost and then a single bomber class is responsible of the destruction of three of these vessels within 2 years? IMHO there isnt much in the 'very few' left for the capships even if the into account the GTD Eisenhower (lost against the first PVD Typhon) which IIRC can not be verified as being an Orion class vessel.

Those would lead me to believe that bombers were a major anticapship asset long before shields or Shivans. Perhaps they used warheads like modern HEAT that have relatively small shockwave but immense penetration instead of HE or nukes like the bombs in FS. Perhaps the tactics were completely different than the bomber tactics in FS1. Perhaps... (ad infinitum)

[karajorma]

Or perhaps they simply disabled and disarmed the Orions. That would still make them responsible for the destruction without them having to blow them up themselves. For further proof.

The destruction of the GTS Asimov has struck a major blow to our attempts to preserve this sector.  Due to the loss of the Asimov's data, Project Tsunami is no more.
The prospect of destroying Shivan cruisers without the Tsunami bomb is daunting, to say the least.

That sort of suggests that neither race had anything capable of taking down Shivan cruisers till the Tsunami came along. If they can't take out cruisers I very much doubt that they could take out capships like the Orion.

[Wanderer]

I dont remember ever seeing that debriefing part... But still the same if a single bomber class was capable of destrying at least (= perhaps even more than) three Orions, even if only as disabling and disarmed them, the bombers would have surely been able to destroy any cruiser (again by same criteria 'disarming and disabling').

The prospect of destroying Shivan cruisers without the Tsunami bomb is daunting, to say the least.

So according to this even Terran or Vasudan cruisers would have been unable to take down Shivan cruisers?

[Prophet]

The Amun is the Vasudans heaviest bomber class ship.  It carries a massive payload and has been responsible for the destruction of at least 3 Orion class destroyers in the past 2 years.  Fortunately, it is slow and has low maneuverability, making it an easy target for our fighters.  Fighter pilots should be wary of the two turrets on this ship: they are not to be ignored.

Which means the bombers had considerable amount of fighter escorts. That means it has been a large engagement. And that suggests considerable capitalship support. Hence it was likely that the Orions defensive abilites were diminished by fighter strikes.

Besides. Filling Amun with Furies is sufficent to seriously cripple an Orion, IF given time to deliver that payload on critical systems in peace . The "massive payload" propably means heavy rockets and perhaps space bombs (bombs with no quidance systems). Tsunami being the first "next generation" anti-cap torpedo.

So according to this even Terran or Vasudan cruisers would have been unable to take down Shivan cruisers?

They couldn't on one-on-one... Two-on-one should be possible if the one is Cain. Lilith is just a monster... But with the help from a wing of Medusas armed with Tsunami, thats another matter...

[Wanderer]

Assumptions, assumptions... Didnt nearly all bomber wings had atleast some fighter protection? Again assuming such an attack was a major engagement involving multiple capships and loads of small craft sqauadrons is IMHO bit too much...

I am not claiming to know that bombers were the primary anti-capship asset in use in pre-FS1 time but i do know that they were a major anti-capship asset according to canon sources. Again I'm not saying that capships were equally worthless as during the Great War era but rather that they are not the only solution especially as conflicting evidence can be found. Just leave open mind for the bombers too.

I think that we can agree that bombers were a major factor in pre-FS1 battles.. Major enough that ships designed at the later stages of that war would have been designed and armed accordingly. Loss of major combatants due bomber actions surely would have had influence on ship designs. Though fact is that we do not know if there were torpedoes, bombs or rockets in use before FS1. We do not know if they were unguided, heat seeking or aspect seeking. Then again we dont know if the capships were the primary anti-capship asset. I just wouldnt go too far with my assumptions

So according to this even Terran or Vasudan cruisers would have been unable to take down Shivan cruisers?

They couldn't on one-on-one... Two-on-one should be possible if the one is Cain. Lilith is just a monster... But with the help from a wing of Medusas armed with Tsunami, thats another matter...

What i was after was that the wording was such that it indicated that none of the allied vessels, Orions and Typhons included, apart from the bombers armed with Tsunamis would have had any chance against a single Shivan cruiser.

[karajorma]

So according to this even Terran or Vasudan cruisers would have been unable to take down Shivan cruisers?

The quote doesn't say unable. Just that it would be very hard to take down cruisers without bombers carrying the Tsunami.

I'm not saying that bombers were worthless in the T-V war. Far from it. The point I'm making is that bombers didn't kill capships back then. The bombers job was to disarm and disable the enemy capship enough that a capship could close and kill it. Now that would be a long drawn out process so it fits with the fact that capships didn't get killed that often. More often than not the cap would probably figure out how to repair an engine and jump out (without subspace tracking this would make it very hard to find it again).

Bombers were an important part of the war effort but their role was more comparable to that of a WWII bomber attacking the Bismark than it is to the role of a FS2 bomber.

[Shade]

FS1 capships weren't completely lame in capital ship combat. The fusion mortar was actually a fairly decent weapon against cruiser sized and smaller targets, due to it's high rate of fire. There's still the matter of bringing the enemy into it's firing arc though.

[boewolf]

Thats why I have placed four mortar turrets on this thing.  Two of them are on the sides so that given the usual capship style of attack they will have at least one mortar turret to attackwith.

[NGTM-1R]

but im sure we can assume that the GTA and PVN at least had fusion bombs in the megaton range.

Actually their lightest ordance was already in the kiloton range. (The MX-50 was rated at 1.5 megatons IIRC.)

[Wanderer]

The main issue that troubles me in this is that you are saying very clearly that bombers didnt destroy capships before FS1 era. And you seem to leave no possibilities for pure small craft assaults (bombers and their escort fighters) being able to destroy any capships in pre-FS1 era. Even though we know practically nothing about the pre-FS1 era equipment, weapons, bombers, or fighters. Im not sure if you meant it in that way but it sounds awfully lot like it.

Oh and another GTD destroyed by small crafts, just check the PVF Anubis tech description.. That is 'at least 4' GTDs (of which 3+ are Orions) destroyed by small craft actions (bombers and kamikaze bombers) and a single GTD lost to capships (Eisenhower). And i do believe that 'responsible for destruction' is essentially the same as 'destroyed'. Quite like in WW2 era battles where in some occasions bombers have been (at least later on) credited for destroying their targets even though the target ships actually stayed afloat and were later on sunk by ship escorting it (US: Lexington, Japan: Hiryu). Quite like GTD Legion.. It wasnt destroyed - as in blown to bits - by Lucifer but rather left as a derelict hulk floating in space.

I just wouldnt like to see anyone using absolute definitions like 'The point I'm making is that bombers didn't kill capships back then.' as we do not know if this is a fact. Rather it is a possibility that bombers didnt kill capships at that time but as far as we know (or at least as far as i know) it is most certainly not the only possibility and we should be able and willing to accept also the possibility that bombers could have been able to blast capships into pieces too.

And MX-50 has 'medium payload (16.5 kt)', but that is just the explosive power of the warhead compared against TNT and has nothing to do with nuclear explosions.

[Prophet]

I get the feeling that my point was bit clouded.
Since bombers have been credited for the destruction of many capitalships they have been in use, and have been effective. But they couldn't have been as effective and quick to destroy them as in FS2, at least without lots of support. But in FS2 we see bomber wings with only minor fighter support pose a serious threat to even destroyers. But in the T-V war they had no such firepower or durability. That is my point.

I think so because: At the strat of FS1 we do not see much bomber action and bombs in the Terran side. We know that the war was hard on economy, so perhaps they simply didn't have that much bomber assets and focused more on heavy fighters like Apollo. Fighters could make an attack against hostile capships without being hit thanks to their speed. But bombers were more voulnerable (remember, no shields). Considering the weaponry of that age, capships were also more voulerable to fast moving fighters.
After project tsunami and the discovery of shield technology, bombers became viable assets again because of the added firepower and the ability to survive trought enemy fire.

Anyone who disagrres with me is as wrong as I am. Because we really don't know too much about those times. But that is my view of things.