[vyper]

Oh, goodie.

And the BNP will play right into the establishment's hands by turning everyone against the cartoons since "Oh noes! It's the BNP!".

[Sandwich]

Am I the only one perversely amused by Europe's reaction to the "cartoon" riots in the Muslim world? I mean, people riot against what amounts to free speech, and Europe goes out of its way to take a stand and davka publishes additional cartoons in the name of free speech that will spark even more rioting among the adherents of the religion of "peace".

[aldo_14]

Am I the only one perversely amused by Europe's reaction to the "cartoon" riots in the Muslim world? I mean, people riot against what amounts to free speech, and Europe goes out of its way to take a stand and davka publishes additional cartoons in the name of free speech that will spark even more rioting among the adherents of the religion of "peace".

'Perversely amused'?  Yes, you are the only person I know amused by it.

 Most europeans are concerned, IMO, at both the risk of religious censorship and the exploitation of the reactions of a proportionally small group of Muslims as a method for rousing racism against them (as we see with the BNP).  I think most of of use respect the right to be upset, the right to express being upset in a non-violent way, and the necessity to ignore that (specifically in not having the governments regulate newspapers) in the interests of free speech.

Again, worth noting part of the causes of the riots, etc, were fundamentalist/extremist clerics with additional, unrelated cartoons which were even more offensive (as they were perpetuated as being of Mohammed, when really for an entirely different purpose).

[Bobboau]

ten years from now:

"going out to vote! are you mad! we mussn't offend the muslims! just sit yer arse down and look like yer praying to mecca or te DoVV'll be on are arses again!"

[Grug]

LoL @ some of those links.

May I point out that:

The protest in the eastern Afghan city of Jalalabad passed off without violence.

Also, how much of the **** is media spin?
It may of been only a handfull of people yelling out the "kill people" comments, how can you trust the media that is ultimately fueling the problems?

I hold some personal hostilities towards the media myself.

[aldo_14]

LoL @ some of those links.

May I point out that:

The protest in the eastern Afghan city of Jalalabad passed off without violence.

Also, how much of the **** is media spin?
It may of been only a handfull of people yelling out the "kill people" comments, how can you trust the media that is ultimately fueling the problems?

I hold some personal hostilities towards the media myself.

This is now a wee bit old, and you probably saw it earlier, but anyways; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4685886.stm

[Bobboau]

reading that there was one bit that stuck out as deeply misthought

"He had a point; after all, a number of European countries would not allow a deeply anti-Semitic book to be published, and have made it a criminal offence to deny the Holocaust.

Why should it not also be illegal to insult the Prophet? "

His thinking is totaly backward IMHO, rather than increaseing the curtailing of free speach as he sugests is the logical conclusion, why doesn't he attack the origonal infringement? why doesn't he say here that it was as wrong to cencer anti-semitism and criminaliseing certan (ignorant/incorect) thought, as the islamic mindset of criminaliseing all disrespect of 'the prophet'?
that is a failure on our part to live up to our own standards and values, not justification more thought police and destruction of those values.
it's not that we are starting to get something right that they already know, it's that we are starting to go wrong in a similar manner that they already are.

[aldo_14]

reading that there was one bit that stuck out as deeply misthought

"He had a point; after all, a number of European countries would not allow a deeply anti-Semitic book to be published, and have made it a criminal offence to deny the Holocaust.

Why should it not also be illegal to insult the Prophet? "

His thinking is totaly backward IMHO, rather than increaseing the curtailing of free speach as he sugests is the logical conclusion, why doesn't he attack the origonal infringement? why doesn't he say here that it was as wrong to cencer anti-semitism and criminaliseing certan (ignorant/incorect) thought, as the islamic mindset of criminaliseing all disrespect of 'the prophet'?

He didn't say that atall, and I think you're missing his point.  What he said was, that Muslims can look to europe and see legislation against such things as inciting racial hatred against Jews (especially in Germany and Austria), yet not against what they see as an equivalent insult and incitement against their religion.  The root of the anger by Muslims is that they feel victimised; that these cartoons are protraying them as terrorists (and yes, the daft bastards firebombing embassies don't help) and acting as incitement to racism and hatred and yet gain an acceptance that we would never see if it were Jewish, or black people portrayed in that way.  I'd imagine myself, that a cartoon (this directly relating to the bomb-turban cartoon) were published depicting a black guy as a sterotypical golliwog esque figure with oversized lips wide nostrils and dealing drugs, it'd be greeted in a vastly different way yet be as equally offensive to the 'target' as these cartoons are.  The whole issue Simpson is talking about in this manner is not removal of freedoms of speech, but of perceived inequities in them, of unfairness in the protections offered to races and religious groups from insult and attack.

That's not to call an abolishment of freedom of speech; Simpsons' very point is that we have to understand that feeling of offense and prevent these sorts of schism, and not just dismiss it as a bunch of violent, anti-democratic, uneducated heathens.

Just read the last 2 lines.

But we must understand that many Muslims around the world feel increasingly beleaguered.

Increasing that sense will do nothing to help anyone.

EDIT; another thought.  This page is some of the anti-semitic cartoons shown in the Arab media http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm.  Firstly, it shows the incredibly hypocracy of those who would protest against the Danish cartoons, but not these ones.  But, secondly, it also has issues relating to the media and free speech; would we feel comfortable if our newspapers were to publish cartoons of this ilk?  Because the reason, of course, for this whole pullaver is because some Muslims find the Danish cartoons as offensive.  It just happens that a minority have acted like twats and destroyed any chance of a reasoned examination, by invading Danish trade missions and burning flags, so we now have a situation that seems like mad fundies versus freedom of speech, when really it's far more grey.

[karajorma]

You may have noticed that I was saying pretty much that right back when this started when everyone was congratulating the French newspaper for protecting freedom of speech.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Vatican asks Muslims to stop being Hypocrites.

[aldo_14]

You may have noticed that I was saying pretty much that right back when this started when everyone was congratulating the French newspaper for protecting freedom of speech.

Yeah, of course.

 It's rather easy to get caught up in it when some daft bastard is attacking the Norweigan embassy of all things, but when you see the likes of the BNP using it to spread their filth.... it gets a lot more clearer what's going on.  I mean, I don't think I'd bar this type of thing (publishing cartoons) because I don't think they're incitement as such (although I don't know what the accompanying article said, and that could change opinions a lot I suppose), but I wouldn't applaud it.  My position is really, 'they were a bit daft and insensitive to show the cartoons, but the consequence of a free society is allowing people to be daft, and we're sorry for any offence by that, but we can't tell people what to do or think'.  It's fine to protest (about anything) peacefully, wrong to burn and break stuff, and wrong to use it in any way to incite racism and a cultural divide.  In fact, the protesting thing is good if it allows an interchange of ideas and societies; as I said, I'd never ban this type of thing unless it was incitement to violence (and even then that's a very tough call vis-a-vis freedom of speech), but if the purpose of satire is to express criticism or concern, and we can learn why there was an offense, it means we can learn to express said criticism and concern in a way that is not insulting but instead compelling and will be considered.

[karajorma]

Yep. That's basically the point I was making. The author of the cartoons had every right to publish them and I would absolutely defend his right to do it. That doesn't make him any less of a wanker for doing it though.

[vyper]

Observation:

Could not the cartoon of his turban being a bomb, represent the bastardisation of Islam by people intent on achieving their own agenda?

They did have some fairly good points, points the Muslim community should be thinking about.

[aldo_14]

Observation:

Could not the cartoon of his turban being a bomb, represent the bastardisation of Islam by people intent on achieving their own agenda?

They did have some fairly good points, points the Muslim community should be thinking about.

Perhaps (I've only seen 3/4 of the cartoons of course), although the way of expressing those points often matters as much as the points themselves.

[Bobboau]

you haven't even seen all of them?
http://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/
I think that's got all of them.
honestly, I don't see anything particularly racist or overly offencive about any of them, there all much more tame than the average political cartoon I see in my local paper. just stop for a moment, look at any political cartoon, just grab a random one, and put it next to the worst one of these, is this realy 'wanker' material? why is it such a horable thing to have a strong oppinion? we don't live in a pink foam padded world, don't judge these things as if we do.

[aldo_14]

It's worth noting the 3 'cartoons' which weren't in Jyllands-Posten, but were used by Imans to encourage these protests - http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48718

(finally found them)

One of those images of mysterious origin, which never were published, is from the AP photo. Another depicts Muhammad as a pedophile demon and a third has a praying Muslim being raped by a dog, according to the weblog Gateway Pundit.

The third, not mentioned in the quote, was a picture of Mohammad as a man with a pigs snout and ears - or rather, a poorly copied picture of a pig impersonation contest in France said to be that.

Also, as an aside, to note a moderate muslim view; http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/

We will note that we find the cartoons to be incendiary, insulting and very abrasive.  We also take issue with the general stance of the Danish Newspaper Jyllands-Posten, which has a reputation for publishing inflammatory material.  Yet, it would be wrong to take away their freedom of expression, regardless of how horrid their material is.  We affirm our belief in freedom of expression and people’s right to express whatever opinions they hold.  However, at the same time there is a need to realize that freedom of expression is a responsibility that should not be used to gratuitously insult people’s beliefs.

 

When confronted with such a situation, we deplore the use of violence in all its forms, as well as threats of violence and derogatory and racist remarks being thrown in the opposite direction.  We condemn the shameful actions carried out by a few Arabs and Muslims around the world that have tarnished our image, and presented us as intolerant and close-minded bigots. 

[vyper]

So, as we already knew, in other words it's yet another group of nutters stirring up the masses.

[Sandwich]

Also, as an aside, to note a moderate muslim view; http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/

Also from that site:

[q]There is a strong tradition of friendship and cooperation between the Norwegian and Danish people and Arab people.  Of most note is the continued support that these governments give to the Palestinian people in their struggle for freedom and liberation, and the brave stance that these governments have often taken to defend Palestinian rights.  We sincerely hope these special bonds will not be broken.  We hope that our Scandinavian friends would not be convinced by the actions of a few to believe that this is how Arabs and Muslims feel about them.  There are racists, bigots and criminals in all countries, and it is the duty of the respectful and reasonable to reach out to each other.

Let us hope that instead of emboldening the bigots, this sorry affair will bring all open-minded, tolerant and reasonable people from the Arab, Muslim, Norwegian, Danish and European communities together to unite in a continued struggle of reason against prejudice, open-mindedness against bigotry and humanity against racism.[/q]

Funny how it always is tied in to the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

[aldo_14]

Also, as an aside, to note a moderate muslim view; http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/

Also from that site:

[q]There is a strong tradition of friendship and cooperation between the Norwegian and Danish people and Arab people.  Of most note is the continued support that these governments give to the Palestinian people in their struggle for freedom and liberation, and the brave stance that these governments have often taken to defend Palestinian rights.  We sincerely hope these special bonds will not be broken.  We hope that our Scandinavian friends would not be convinced by the actions of a few to believe that this is how Arabs and Muslims feel about them.  There are racists, bigots and criminals in all countries, and it is the duty of the respectful and reasonable to reach out to each other.

Let us hope that instead of emboldening the bigots, this sorry affair will bring all open-minded, tolerant and reasonable people from the Arab, Muslim, Norwegian, Danish and European communities together to unite in a continued struggle of reason against prejudice, open-mindedness against bigotry and humanity against racism.[/q]

Funny how it always is tied in to the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

Why funny?  It's become a microcosm (not to mention one cause) of the cultural divisions and conflicts between the Western world (who obviously placed Israel in it's position and provide a lot of support) and the Muslim world.

[karajorma]

honestly, I don't see anything particularly racist or overly offencive about any of them, there all much more tame than the average political cartoon I see in my local paper. just stop for a moment, look at any political cartoon, just grab a random one, and put it next to the worst one of these, is this realy 'wanker' material?

The implication of the cartoon is that all muslims are terrorists. That's a much stronger and much more racist view than you'll see in most political cartoons except those published by the KKK or BNP. Hence the term wanker. I've called Ann Coulter a dumb ***** for expressing similar sentiments. Why should I tone that down just because someone puts the same xenophobic sentiment in a cartoon?

Let me ask you this. If this was a cartoon depicting Martin Luther King as a drug dealing gang member simply because he was black would you believe that it was equally mild?