[Shade]

Wow, that chicken thing has to be the stupidest thing I ever heard. By far. I feel dumber already just for reading it.

[karajorma]

The more you listen to creationist arguments the more you realise that they are often close to that level of idiocy. You just need to understand the science to have it translated to you.

For instance have you never heard the one about how "if humans evolved from chimps why are there still chimps?" Lets ignore the fact that one species can evolve from another without replacing it due to geographical reasons and go for the big really satifying flaw in the argument. Humans didn't evolve from chimps. You won't find a single person who actually understands evolution who will say that we did.

The problem is that most people don't understand the science involved so it's easy to confuse them and make it sound like the argument is saying something valid. What makes it worse is that the person arguing against evolution often doesn't actually understand his counter-arguement either and is parroting it from another source. Hence the whole thing with chicken enzymes

[aldo_14]

Or that evolution 'violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics', which is one of the aformentioned Gishes ones.

[Bobboau]

this is makeing me want to go pick a fight with some creationists.

[aldo_14]

this is makeing me want to go pick a fight with some creationists.

Why do you think I posted this?  It's great fun, except they don't play any more because they always lose and look foolish.

[karajorma]

Or that evolution 'violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics', which is one of the aformentioned Gishes ones.

Yep. I was thinking of that at the time but I choose one which is easier to explain To anyone with a good understanding of physics the idea that the 2nd law works the way Gish describes is laughable as their claim that increases in order from disorder also rule out the possibility of snow flakes and other crystals amongst other things.

[aldo_14]

Or that evolution 'violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics', which is one of the aformentioned Gishes ones.

Yep. I was thinking of that at the time but I choose one which is easier to explain To anyone with a good understanding of physics the idea that the 2nd law works the way Gish describes is laughable as their claim that increases in order from disorder also rule out the possibility of snow flakes and other crystals amongst other things.

Plus the whole 'earth is a closed system' is stupidity defined.

[karajorma]

Actually I think Specified Complexity is probably the most ridiculous argument of the lot to be honest. That's the one that say if you work out the chance of human beings evolving from single celled organisms is so low that there must be a creator. Yes the chance of humans specifically evolving is low. The chance of something evolving is vitually a certainty though.

Best analogy i've heard is to say it is like dealing out a deck of cards between 4 people and then calculating the possibility of them holding the particular hand they each hold. While the possibility of them holding that particular hand is low the probability that after dealing out the cards they would be holding a hand is 1 in 1.

[aldo_14]

Actually I think Specified Complexity is probably the most ridiculous argument of the lot to be honest. That's the one that say if you work out the chance of human beings evolving from single celled organisms is so low that there must be a creator. Yes the chance of humans specifically evolving is low. The chance of something evolving is vitually a certainty though.

Best analogy i've heard is to say it is like dealing out a deck of cards between 4 people and then calculating the possibility of them holding the particular hand they each hold. While the possibility of them holding that particular hand is low the probability that after dealing out the cards they would be holding a hand is 1 in 1.

Classic mistake, that one.  Also it helps a lot to remember sexual as well as natural selection, and to be honest I wasn't really aware of the former until fairly recently.

[Shade]

Really doesn't take that much for something simple and random to turn into something seemingly complex. The game of life is a good example of this, with just a few extremely simple rules allowing hugely complex, and seemingly 'alive' scenarios to unfold.

[Janos]

Really doesn't take that much for something simple and random to turn into something seemingly complex. The game of life is a good example of this, with just a few extremely simple rules allowing hugely complex, and seemingly 'alive' scenarios to unfold.

It certainly doesn't, because even if the chance is 1/15153th, it's been taking billions of years. even 1/100 000 000 000 can happen, and propably will in some span of time.

Seriously though, I would love if we would stop ridiculing creationsts and instead give them hard irrefutable arguments instead. I am propably one of the most hardcore evolutionists in this forum - even though I am nowhere as eloquent or elegant as aldo or Kara - but sometimes I think that groupthink and "LOL" arguments are too common.

Evolutionary theory is, by far, one of the best scientific hypothesises we have. There are more grounds for attacking gravity or general relativity or certain philosophic ideals or quantum theories than there are to attack evolution. Sarcasm, inside jokes and stuff like that is unneeded, because
A) evolution is very, very well proved
B) you can't really change mind in INTTERNET

Just simply refer to empirical proof. You'll find lots of it. Like, huge amounts. JUST LOOK AT THE FUKKEN MODERN MEDICINE YOU DUMB ****ES

[aldo_14]

We can't engage creationists on any sort of meaningful arguement becase they won't participate in one.  They don't have a theory to disprove, after all, just a bunch of misconceptions about scientific orthodoxy.  And I think it deserves ridicule, frankly, because it is ridiculous that this is being entertained as education by governments.

[ZmaN]

this is makeing me want to go pick a fight with some creationists.

then I'm standing by...  bring your maxim and kayser if you want to...

Oh, and I'm NOT joking, Jesus IS god.
Youre trying to tell me youve never heard the word "the trinity" before?
God the Father (God), God the Son (Jesus), and God the Spirit (the Holy Spirit), I'm telling you guys, this evolution stuff isn't true...
I can give more proof if you REALLY wanna know...

[aldo_14]

this is makeing me want to go pick a fight with some creationists.

then I'm standing by...  bring your maxim and kayser if you want to...

Oh, and I'm NOT joking, Jesus IS god.
Youre trying to tell me youve never heard the word "the trinity" before?
God the Father (God), God the Son (Jesus), and God the Spirit (the Holy Spirit), I'm telling you guys, this evolution stuff isn't true...
I can give more proof if you REALLY wanna know...

Maybe you should start with some 'proof' before talking about 'more proof'.  go on, fire away.

[ZmaN]

this is makeing me want to go pick a fight with some creationists.

then I'm standing by...  bring your maxim and kayser if you want to...

Oh, and I'm NOT joking, Jesus IS god.
Youre trying to tell me youve never heard the word "the trinity" before?
God the Father (God), God the Son (Jesus), and God the Spirit (the Holy Spirit), I'm telling you guys, this evolution stuff isn't true...
I can give more proof if you REALLY wanna know...

Maybe you should start with some 'proof' before talking about 'more proof'.  go on, fire away.

Fine...  when I have time ill scan pages off my science book...  thats all the proof you'll need....

[StratComm]

Since the other popcorn-and-soda thread today got locked, I'm looking forward to following this one

[vyper]

Creationism - When you really want to blame God for your unattractive chest hair.

[aldo_14]

this is makeing me want to go pick a fight with some creationists.

then I'm standing by...  bring your maxim and kayser if you want to...

Oh, and I'm NOT joking, Jesus IS god.
Youre trying to tell me youve never heard the word "the trinity" before?
God the Father (God), God the Son (Jesus), and God the Spirit (the Holy Spirit), I'm telling you guys, this evolution stuff isn't true...
I can give more proof if you REALLY wanna know...

Maybe you should start with some 'proof' before talking about 'more proof'.  go on, fire away.

Fine...  when I have time ill scan pages off my science book...  thats all the proof you'll need....

'science' book?

Oh, god, please tell me it's not that bloody pandas thing.

anyways, you mean you don't know it well enough to even quote anything ad-verbatim?  Beyond the complete and utter rubbish of the humans-chickens thing, based on a quote formed by a faulty analogy which never had any experimental evidence published to attempt to support it?

[Grug]

*starts the beating of the drums*

How old are you btw Zman?

[karajorma]

Seriously though, I would love if we would stop ridiculing creationsts and instead give them hard irrefutable arguments instead. I am propably one of the most hardcore evolutionists in this forum - even though I am nowhere as eloquent or elegant as aldo or Kara - but sometimes I think that groupthink and "LOL" arguments are too common.

Problem is that they aren't willing to sit down and listen to hard irrefutable arguments. Secondly even if they are it's very hard to get them to understand them as it's quite rare for a creationist to have a good understanding of what evolution actually is. How often have you heard someone claim that evolution is random for instance? Even a basic understanding of natural selection will show you that it not but yet we still hear that time and time again.

You can't even destroy their arguments because quite often they don't understand them either. If you looked at the last couple of ID debates I ended up having to explain what ID actually was to be the people who had been arguing in favour of it. How can you pursuade someone to listen to an argument on a subject they don't like when they can't even be bothered to listen to the side of the argument that does support their beliefs?