Author Topic: More proof of evolution  (Read 223835 times)

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Re: More proof of evolution
Speaking of which Im still wanting to see him back up his statement that ID supposedly "denies and opposed Christianity".

That's my statement, substituting "organized religion" for "Christianity". And you could read the backup if you bothered to find it.

Forgive me if I missed it, I dont know if youve noticed how many pages this thread has, but thats still nonsence. I would absolutely love to argue this out as I do think this is the most ridiculous comment I had read in a while. So, would you care to back up your assertion a second time? Im sure it wouldnt take up too much of your time.

Ed

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: More proof of evolution
Well, frankly, search is borkified since it turns up my post but attributes it to Charismatic, and links to the wrong place in the thread.

Page 9, about halfway up.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: More proof of evolution
A thought just occurred to me, one that's actually quite fundemental to this argument and yet totally unrelated to science. Intelligent Design is invalid from a religious standpoint, provided one thinks it through.

If ID is in fact true, that is fundemental, irrefutable proof of God. But proof denies faith. Without faith, organized religion and God Himself are nothing. We have never been promised proof of His existance. Indeed, He wishes us to take Him upon faith alone, without proof. Faith is what will in the end save you. Faith is what you are asked to have; no more, no less.

Intelligent Design denies faith. And in denying faith, you deny God.

Who is the greater assault upon Christanity now?


@Edward Bradshaw

I believe - correct me if i'm wrong - that ngtm1r was trying to make the point that Intelligent Design is an inherently contradictory and self-defeating thing, because it seeks to trojan-horse God into the science classroom with a premise that, if any way proveable or testable as science has to be, would destroy the faith basis of religions (which have always used the lack of any sort of observable evidence as a sort of test as to 'worthiness' on the part of believers).

 

Offline vyper

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Re: More proof of evolution
And God would vanish in a poof of logic.
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Re: More proof of evolution
Well, frankly, search is borkified since it turns up my post but attributes it to Charismatic, and links to the wrong place in the thread.

Page 9, about halfway up.

You talking about this post?
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39227.msg798898.html#msg798898

Because I was replying to the part where it says...

 "A faction called Intelligent Design, opposes evolution and denies Christianity at the same time. This group, which emerged in recent years, believes that there is no God or creator"

So, was that you?  Because if it was, I cant see where you back this up.

Ed



 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: More proof of evolution
Well, frankly, search is borkified since it turns up my post but attributes it to Charismatic, and links to the wrong place in the thread.

Page 9, about halfway up.

Ah, you're (both) getting your wire crossed here.  Both said that, but in different contexts; ngtm1r to show how it's self-defeating and completely irrational, and Charismatic because he was, put simply, taken in by the 'ID is science' claptrap that hides the creationist origins so it can be forced into the science curriculum.

You talking about this post?
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39227.msg798898.html#msg798898

Because I was replying to the part where it says...

 "A faction called Intelligent Design, opposes evolution and denies Christianity at the same time. This group, which emerged in recent years, believes that there is no God or creator"

So, was that you?  Because if it was, I cant see where you back this up.

Ed




 
Re: More proof of evolution
Well, frankly, search is borkified since it turns up my post but attributes it to Charismatic, and links to the wrong place in the thread.

Page 9, about halfway up.

Ah, you're (both) getting your wire crossed here.  Both said that, but in different contexts; ngtm1r to show how it's self-defeating and completely irrational, and Charismatic because he was, put simply, taken in by the 'ID is science' claptrap that hides the creationist origins so it can be forced into the science curriculum.

You talking about this post?
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39227.msg798898.html#msg798898

Because I was replying to the part where it says...

 "A faction called Intelligent Design, opposes evolution and denies Christianity at the same time. This group, which emerged in recent years, believes that there is no God or creator"

So, was that you?  Because if it was, I cant see where you back this up.

Ed

I always find it weird when someone quotes someones post but writes nothing as a responce. I have no idea what it means!  :D :D

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: More proof of evolution
Edward, there is an extra sentence in the quote, check it out.

Right after ngtm1r's quote.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: More proof of evolution
How the hell did that happen?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: More proof of evolution
Aldo quoted the correct post. I haven't got a clue where the other one came from.
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Offline StratComm

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Re: More proof of evolution
Aldo intended to split the post but missed the inner endquote and the start of the next one, it looks like.  That can cause confusion from time to time.
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Re: More proof of evolution
Aldo quoted the correct post. I haven't got a clue where the other one came from.

Then I wasnt talking about a post of yours afterall/

  

Offline aldo_14

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Re: More proof of evolution
Aldo intended to split the post but missed the inner endquote and the start of the next one, it looks like.  That can cause confusion from time to time.

And then edit stopped working for some reason (timeout), so I couldn't edit it.  Gah.  :)

 

Offline jr2

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Re: More proof of evolution
I see that this has already been brought up before, but the 2nd law of thermodynamics.  Has anyone gotten a workaround for that?

BTW, how do complex systems evolve from simple ones?  Okay, this means assuming we're talking about more than "microevolution" or small change within an existing, complex system.

eg You can scramble a few table values in FS and get some interesting results, maybe to your benefit, but that's not making a whole new game from nothing.

OK, I think the theory is that "survival of the fittest" or "natural selection" produces those results over long periods of time.  But, for that to work on a complex system, you must have intelligent input.  Because any additional organ, for example, is more likely to become a liability than an asset in a fight for survival unless it >poof!< evolved instantaneously.  ie, If you just crawled out of the water, and you're dragging your tail behind you, that'd make you an easy lunch.  But you'd never make it out of the water because while you were evolving your legs, that made you a snack for a gator.  Oh, wait a minute.  That's right.  I forgot.  The new theory is that the cows started on land and evolved into whales.  Right.  (not meaning to be too snotty there, sorry.)  Okay, and what makes you think the gene code for the legs (or tail, if you're going into the water) would stay there for more than a few generations?  Unless it proved of some benefit to the organism (and for that it'd have to function to some degree of efficiency) it'd be dropped off.  Like that tail you didn't need when you tripped over something on the way out the door.  I've always wondered about that one.

EDIT: The problem with survival of the fittest / natural selection is that it has no foresight.  None.  Nada.  It can only react.  The only way around that is to say that various mutations happened to be beneficial for a certain situation, and happened to have evolved for no reason whatsoever, and had been ready and in-place when something happened to necessitate their existence.

BTW I'll try and read up on this thread.  I was thinking of starting my own, but now I see the discussion's already begun.  Ha!


« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 03:52:30 am by jr2 »

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: More proof of evolution
I see that this has already been brought up before, but the 2nd law of thermodynamics.  Has anyone gotten a workaround for that?

Doesn't apply.  entropy requires a closed system; Earth is not a closed system.

BTW, how do complex systems evolve from simple ones?  Okay, this means assuming we're talking about more than "microevolution" or small change within an existing, complex system.

eg You can scramble a few table values in FS and get some interesting results, maybe to your benefit, but that's not making a whole new game from nothing.

OK, I think the theory is that "survival of the fittest" or "natural selection" produces those results over long periods of time.  But, for that to work on a complex system, you must have intelligent input.  Because any additional organ, for example, is more likely to become a liability than an asset in a fight for survival unless it >poof!< evolved instantaneously.  ie, If you just crawled out of the water, and you're dragging your tail behind you, that'd make you an easy lunch.  But you'd never make it out of the water because while you were evolving your legs, that made you a snack for a gator.  Oh, wait a minute.  That's right.  I forgot.  The new theory is that the cows started on land and evolved into whales.  Right.  (not meaning to be too snotty there, sorry.)  Okay, and what makes you think the gene code for the legs (or tail, if you're going into the water) would stay there for more than a few generations?  Unless it proved of some benefit to the organism (and for that it'd have to function to some degree of efficiency) it'd be dropped off.  Like that tail you didn't need when you tripped over something on the way out the door.  I've always wondered about that one.

It's simple; how much better is it to be short-sighted, than blind?

(oh, and actual liabilities are cut down by natural selection, unless they are beneficial in sexual selection)

Um, and you're not talking sudden sharp changes, anyways.  The changes - morphological - are very long term and full of tiny increments.  The assumption that organs appear instantaneous in what might be termed 'modern form' is a major mistake, but a sadly common one. 

NB: a tail that was disadvantageous would be culled before developing into a full form (so to speak).

EDIT: The problem with survival of the fittest / natural selection is that it has no foresight.  None.  Nada.  It can only react.  The only way around that is to say that various mutations happened to be beneficial for a certain situation, and happened to have evolved for no reason whatsoever, and had been ready and in-place when something happened to necessitate their existence.

BTW I'll try and read up on this thread.  I was thinking of starting my own, but now I see the discussion's already begun.  Ha!

That's the whole point.  There is no foresight required.... but the overwhelming vast majority of mutations are negative or simply invisible.  Offhand, the average human will have 7-15 gene mutations, and most are pretty much unnoticeable.

You're making the classic mistake, I think, of thinking that something that is kept as advantageous, is the only 'design' (in physical terms, i.e. body design) that can possibly arise with that benefit.

EDIT; whale evolution;  http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

It saddens me that the first page of google results seems to dominated by creationist propaganda rubbish; what is this world coming to?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 04:36:37 am by aldo_14 »

 

Offline jr2

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Re: More proof of evolution
Quote
Doesn't apply.  entropy requires a closed system; Earth is not a closed system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics
Quote
The entropy of an isolated system not at equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolated_system
Quote
In thermodynamics, an isolated system, as contrasted with a closed system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings. It obeys a number of conservation laws: its total energy and mass stay constant. They cannot enter or exit, but can only move around inside. An example is in the study of spacetime, where it is assumed that asymptotically flat spacetimes exist.

Truly isolated physical systems do not exist in reality, but real systems may behave nearly this way for finite (possibly very long) times. The concept of an isolated system can serve as a useful model approximating many real-world situations. It is an acceptable idealization used in constructing mathematical models of certain natural phenomena; e.g., the Sun and planets in our solar system, and the proton and electron in a hydrogen atom are often treated as isolated systems. But from time to time, a hydrogen atom will interact with electromagnetic radiation and go to an excited state.

Another reason no system can be truly isolated is that even in interstellar space, there is the 2.7 K background blackbody radiation left over from the Big Bang. This heat permeates every physical body in the Universe.
http://amsglossary.allenpress.com/glossary/browse%3Fs%3Dc%26p%3D80
Quote
The principle that absolute angular momentum is a property that cannot be created or destroyed but can only be transferred from one physical system to another through the agency of a net torque on the system. As a consequence, the absolute angular momentum of an isolated physical system remains constant. The principle of conservation of angular momentum can be derived from Newton's second law of motion.
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_angular_momentum

Since everything came from the Big Bang, everything would be spinning in the same direction, right?  Why are there several planets that rotate backwards (in relation to Earth & most other Sol planets)?
Also, I don't get that the reason that "no system can truly be closed" is because of the Big Bang.  Huh?  So what there's energy left over.  It exists in the same system, right?

Quote
Um, and you're not talking sudden sharp changes, anyways.  The changes - morphological - are very long term and full of tiny increments.  The assumption that organs appear instantaneous in what might be termed 'modern form' is a major mistake, but a sadly common one.
No-no-no.  I'm saying that it has to be instantaneous because otherwise it's not advantageous for the organism, and is not carried; or, if it becomes a liability, then it's end of the gene pool.  Right?  Unless every single "tiny increment" was beneficial and/or the organism with a liability was able to survive until his code changed?

Quote
NB: a tail that was disadvantageous would be culled before developing into a full form (so to speak).
Uhm, no.  It couldn't, that's what I was saying. 
Quote
None.  Nada.  It can only react.
The tail is not culled; you're missing the trees for the forest.  The creatures that don't have necessary parts/or have parts that are liabilities die out!  And the ones that are left...have different code.  And unless the code miraculously mutates back to the original form, or a part of the un-modified species was spared, that's the last of that line of code.
If (speaking theoretically) we descended from something w/a tail, that system is fully in-place, operating, and beneficial.  Why did it go away?  The only way for a system to cease to be a part of self-recreating organisms is for it to stop being advantageous, and to become a liability, right?  How does that happen?  "natural selection" aka "survival of the fittest"..the environment changes.. which means the affected line dies out!![/i]  You don't have a tail because it (for some reason) is not beneficial any more...and your ancestors that didn't get the change died out?  There's still monkeys out there.  Unless you're saying that a certain group of monkeys decided to not use their tails so much that they ceased to be advantageous and became a liability, while the others stayed in the trees.  The only explaination I can think of is a disease that made them not able to use their tails... but that'd make them less fit and less able to survive.
Quote
You're making the classic mistake, I think, of thinking that something that is kept as advantageous, is the only 'design' (in physical terms, i.e. body design) that can possibly arise with that benefit.
  And the rest of the mutation's effects just hang around in limbo, until they are incorporated into a system bigger than themselves that is for the organism's benefit?  I'd have thought that 'junk' code hanging around was a rather bad thing... it sure messes FRED up.

Of course, this is assuming you're dealing with emerging systems & species (macroevolution.)
Microevolution within an existing, complex system :nervous: designed for survival  :nervous: can occur, and when the problem that requires the mutation goes away, sometimes you get your code back, because of the variables  :nervous: built into  :nervous: the system.

Anyways, I'm starting to get tired here...  Been up for awhile; I'll come back and read more later.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: More proof of evolution
Bah.  i'm at work.

2nd law; http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html#CF000

big bang is not related to evolution.  I'd normally take the time to check & answer anyways but, as I said, i'm quite busy working justnow.

Ok, quoty bits.

Quote
No-no-no.  I'm saying that it has to be instantaneous because otherwise it's not advantageous for the organism, and is not carried; or, if it becomes a liability, then it's end of the gene pool.  Right?  Unless every single "tiny increment" was beneficial and/or the organism with a liability was able to survive until his code changed?

The vast majority (and I mean vast) of mutations are either intangible or at most of a very minor disadvantage which has no impact on survivability or reproductive prospects.  i'm not sure what your point is here; you seem to be suggesting something akin to the classic 'eye' puzzle, but that was something solved ages ago.

Quote
Uhm, no.  It couldn't, that's what I was saying.

Why not?

Think of culled vestigal limbs in whales.

Quote
The tail is not culled; you're missing the trees for the forest.  The creatures that don't have necessary parts/or have parts that are liabilities die out!  And the ones that are left...have different code.  And unless the code miraculously mutates back to the original form, or a part of the un-modified species was spared, that's the last of that line of code.
If (speaking theoretically) we descended from something w/a tail, that system is fully in-place, operating, and beneficial.  Why did it go away?  The only way for a system to cease to be a part of self-recreating organisms is for it to stop being advantageous, and to become a liability, right?  How does that happen?  "natural selection" aka "survival of the fittest"..the environment changes.. which means the affected line dies out!![/i]  You don't have a tail because it (for some reason) is not beneficial any more...and your ancestors that didn't get the change died out?  There's still monkeys out there.  Unless you're saying that a certain group of monkeys decided to not use their tails so much that they ceased to be advantageous and became a liability, while the others stayed in the trees.  The only explaination I can think of is a disease that made them not able to use their tails... but that'd make them less fit and less able to survive.

Eh?  I have no idea what you are on about.  you do realise that one of the primary advantages of morphological change can be adapting to new environmental niches?  Things like a tail, for a ground ape, are simply a liability. Let's say we have a tailed ape (actually, I'm not sure if monkeys evolved tails as a consequence of moving up to the trees rather than down, i'll have to check).  Lets say it moves to the ground because there is more food there.  Ok?  now, over time, these apes with smaller tails - smaller tail genes - will have an advantage in this new environment due to their smaller tails, and the small-tail propensity will carry across generations till it vanishes.

I think - because i don't really see the logic you're using here - that you're forgetting competition as a driving factor. Animals are constantly competing for dominance over others, and that can lead to environmental changes aside from those caused by 'natural' effects like, say drought or fire.

For example, to go back to the whale; large mammals could migrate to the water - like a hippo or elephant nowadays does - for food or to better escape predation. I would suggest, actually, that it's more likely monkeys (as distinct from apes) evolved tails as a consequence of living in trees; I'm pretty (99%) sure that a cursory check to the ape-monkey evolutionary tree will reveal that.

Also, remember evolution is a divergent process; it entails splits in the familial tree, not a 'line' between species.  This is why we have, say, humans and gorillas as sharing some common (distant) ancestor yet entirely different environments and physical characteristics.

Quote
  And the rest of the mutation's effects just hang around in limbo, until they are incorporated into a system bigger than themselves that is for the organism's benefit?  I'd have thought that 'junk' code hanging around was a rather bad thing... it sure messes FRED up.

Of course, this is assuming you're dealing with emerging systems & species (macroevolution.)
Microevolution within an existing, complex system designed for survival  can occur, and when the problem that requires the mutation goes away, sometimes you get your code back, because of the variables  built into  the system.

Anyways, I'm starting to get tired here...  Been up for awhile; I'll come back and read more later.

Vast chunks of DNA are considered junk (or at least have no apparent purpose) IIRC.  You seem to be making the classic mistake that evolution implies perfection of some sort.  So yes, mutational effects - even if expressed - can hang about 'in limbo'.  Remember that genes fall into dominant and recessive categories, as well.

EDIT;
A lot of DNA actually has no function; http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB130.html

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: More proof of evolution
Since everything came from the Big Bang, everything would be spinning in the same direction, right?


Wrong.

Quote
Why are there several planets that rotate backwards (in relation to Earth & most other Sol planets)?


The Big Bang did not create the Solar system. The Big Bang was over 12 billion years ago whilst the solar system is around 4-5 billion years old. The rotation of the planets has absolutely nothing to do with the Big Bang and everything to do with accretion and tidal forces.

Quote
Also, I don't get that the reason that "no system can truly be closed" is because of the Big Bang.  Huh?  So what there's energy left over.  It exists in the same system, right?


BUt you will admit that Earth is obviously not a closed system and that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is therefore completely inconsequential to this discussion of evolution right?

Quote
If (speaking theoretically) we descended from something w/a tail, that system is fully in-place, operating, and beneficial.  Why did it go away?  The only way for a system to cease to be a part of self-recreating organisms is for it to stop being advantageous, and to become a liability, right?  How does that happen?  "natural selection" aka "survival of the fittest"..the environment changes.. which means the affected line dies out!![/i]  You don't have a tail because it (for some reason) is not beneficial any more...and your ancestors that didn't get the change died out?  There's still monkeys out there.  Unless you're saying that a certain group of monkeys decided to not use their tails so much that they ceased to be advantageous and became a liability, while the others stayed in the trees.  The only explaination I can think of is a disease that made them not able to use their tails... but that'd make them less fit and less able to survive.


Cart before the horse.

Let me ask you this. What use would a tail be to an ape? Monkeys can use them to hang from trees and stuff but there's no way a tail could do that for a great ape without significant evolutionary changes. We all weigh too much for that.
 You act like a tail is a great thing to have but remember that a tail isn't free. It takes energy to grow it and energy to power it. A mutation who had a smaller tail wouldn't have to pay those energy costs and would be rewarded for his shorter tail by either having his body able to spend that energy elsewhere or simply by not needing as much energy in the first place. In addition not having a tail means that you can't get cancer of the tail or any other tail diseases. You can't be grabbed by the tail by a predator or get it caught somewhere and have it slow down your escape.

 Now weigh that against the evolutionary arguments in favour of having a tail and you'll see that there's not much reason for having one once you get too heavy to hang from it.

Quote
Of course, this is assuming you're dealing with emerging systems & species (macroevolution.)
Microevolution

[ SNIP ]

No difference whatsoever between the two. At least not in the way you're trying to use them.

Macroevolution = Evolution creationists can deny
Microevolution = Evolution so bloody obvious that even the most close-minded creationist can't deny it exists.

So in order to continue denying that evolution exists they've created a false distinction between the two. There isn't one. Macroevolution is the same damned thing given a little longer. Look at the list of observed instances of speciation in fruit flys as proof that even within the false boundrys for Macroevolution creationists have set there are cases which are undeniably cases of macroevolution.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: More proof of evolution
Evolution is flukey, Look at the Daddy long legs- Most powerful poison in the animal kingdom.......
But no teeth,

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: More proof of evolution
Offhand, on the big bang thing; there's also other considerations in movement anyways, like magnetism/gravity.