Author Topic: My Textbook Scans....  (Read 10246 times)

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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
ok I would like someone to point out whats on the pages Color0024 and color0025.

How is it possible for ANY animal to transform over a period of thousands of years?  If thats teh case, the animal is renedered unusable.  it isn't able to get any food, water, it cant walk, it cant do anything but sit there.  Thousands of years?  haha, try death in 2 days.

If a bat did turn into a rodent like described, and it took thousands of years for those wings to turn into legs, whats in between?  Its not in a usable state if its "in-between".

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB921.html

And a bat evolved from small rodents, not the other way around.

EDIT:
This one is more relevant
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB921_2.html
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
ok I would like someone to point out whats on the pages Color0024 and color0025.

How is it possible for ANY animal to transform over a period of thousands of years?  If thats teh case, the animal is renedered unusable.  it isn't able to get any food, water, it cant walk, it cant do anything but sit there.  Thousands of years?  haha, try death in 2 days.

If a bat did turn into a rodent like described, and it took thousands of years for those wings to turn into legs, whats in between?  Its not in a usable state if its "in-between".

Are you taking the piss?  Seriously, read any proper scientific description of evolution, because what you've just said indicates a shocking misunderstanding of the process, and you need to understand the basics before it's worthwhile me or anyone else replying.  I'm not lying, or joking, to say how shocked I am by that statement.

But, bugger it, I'll try and explain anyways.

Ok, an individual animal does not sit still and 'change'.  Evolution is the process of gradual, random changes selected by a discriminatory set of survival and reproduction processes.  Changes which make the animal less able to survive, or reproduce, are removed.  those beneficial (the converse) become propagated, gradually, across the species.  Speciation is a result of the combination of multiple morphological changes.

Let's take a wing.  Ok, let's say we have a rodent (NB: this refers to the species, not an individual).  This rodent, thanks to selection, develops the ability to climb trees (to escape predation).  Over time, selection pressures will favour mutations that give the rodent better climbing abilities, like sharper claws for digging into bark.  Now, say that rodent wants to move quickly between trees, without touching the danger zone of the ground.  Again, selection - survival - will favour a mutation that, say, creates very small flaps of skins between limbs.  You can see this, for example, in gliding squirrels.  Selection will continue to favour mutations that aid the gliding ability, i.e. 'push' towards larger 'wings'; flaps of skin and limbs.  Eventually, should the right mutation arise for it of course, wings may occur and be selected advantageously.  Ergo, you have a 'bat' descendent of our original rodent.

EDIT; note; the term 'want' means 'it is advantageous'.  This is not signifying a conscious desire or intentional push towards a physical change; what I mean, is that if these particular changes arise, they will be advantageous & thus selected.  Our rodent may get on perfectly fine without elongated limbs or gliding flaps; but if they arise, that new species will be better equipped to survive.  Also, for simiplicity I've not mentioned issues like speciation here; the 'rodent' is not a single individual or species, but a representative term for steps in the chain between the original species and the end - flight - species.  Also, at any stage another species may branch off.  for example, you could have one type of descendant that purely flies ala a bat, and one that only glides but exists because the 2 descendent species occupy different environmental niches.

Now, all these transitional forms have a small change from the descendent form beforehand.  In all cases, it's a slight advantage, so it's selected by simple survival (natural selection).

EDIT3; That is, evolution does not 'jump' between radically different body types.  It's slow and gradual, and the selection is responsive rather than anticipatory; i.e. out hypothetical rodent will not grow wings then jump up trees, it'll jump up tree and then, should the mutations arise, evolutionarily 'preserve' these advantageous wings.  Negative mutations - such is wings on a rodent that lives on the ground (note; such gross mutations are highly unlikely, and evolution accounts for this too), would result in that animal probably dying before it could propagate its genes, or at least its descendents having such a reduced fitness that they are likely to go 'extinct' as a sub-branch of the species, hence why these changes are only seen on animals they would benefit (rather obviously).

Those 2 pages, right there, are laden with inaccuracy and downright falsehoods.  If you want another example of small animal - flight transition, examine dinosaur fossils such as archeopteryx.

Oh, and I'd wager the 'quotes' there are being taken incredibly out of context and skewed for effect.  It's essentially propaganda material, devoid of validity.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 12:10:34 pm by aldo_14 »

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Explain the Platypus then people, :D
Ok i'll do it for ya,.....

One friday night, a beaver and duck go into a bar


 (transmission static)
#######
############
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#####--Rohypnol--#######

############
##################
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##########
#--Bondage-###
#-Excessive lubrication###
Transmission resumed---------

And thats why it should be made illegal to feed ducks wearing shorts !! :mad:
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Offline Janos

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
words

Bats are propably a paraphyletic group. They are apparently related to insectivora and more distantly to primates, not rodents.
lol wtf

 

Offline Ulala

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
What bugs me about this thread after a very quick read through is how the atheistic side says "cite your source, prove this, etc" or whatever, so the biblical side of the argument does bring up a reasonable point, and the retort is "oh they just chose the story that matched closest so it'd look like the prophecy was really fulfilled." Where's your cited source for that? Did you go back a few thousand years and ask a church leader?

I'm all for debate, but some of this isn't debate, it's two siblings screaming at each other over something they're never going to agree on.  :doubt:
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
What bugs me about this thread after a very quick read through is how the atheistic side says "cite your source, prove this, etc" or whatever, so the biblical side of the argument does bring up a reasonable point, and the retort is "oh they just chose the story that matched closest so it'd look like the prophecy was really fulfilled." Where's your cited source for that? Did you go back a few thousand years and ask a church leader?

I'm all for debate, but some of this isn't debate, it's two siblings screaming at each other over something they're never going to agree on.  :doubt:

Wait a second, here.  If, as is likely, said source is highly open to liberal interpretation, with the benefit of foreknowledge, why the hell should that not be pointed out?  The whole point is that, I fully expect, you will find you have text A, and the entire correctness of text A rests upon a reading made with the knowledge of what - in the religious case - you want it to say.

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
What bugs me about this thread after a very quick read through is how the atheistic side says "cite your source, prove this, etc" or whatever, so the biblical side of the argument does bring up a reasonable point

The Bible is not a valid source in the first place. If any Creationists want to cite some real scientific research that supports Intelligent Design then they will get a reasonable response.

If the Creationists keep citing joke sources like the Bible they will continue to get a silly or exasperated response.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Ok, page 1.  I'm wathcing the ole WC, so not doing this all at once.  I think I'll get sick of the pish quite soon in, but I'll try to get as much as poss covered.  At least it's big text.....

Big whopper; firstly, god creating the universe is not an undeniable truth.  Secondly, the founders of modern science is a term than can be applied, ooh, probably back to the Ancient Greeks depending on what you define as modern science.   Evolution is not a theory that even considers the creation of the universe or life; those are different areas of science (physics and abiogenesis).

Evolution is not faith; it is scientific theory.  This is a blatant lie; and about the 3rd or 4th major one on just the page.  It also uses the basic, fallacious tactic early on as trying to characterise evolution as chance; this is again wrong (mutation is random, selection is deterministic)

Page 2
Another basic lie, in stating that only eyewitnesses at the time are relevant to discussion of origins.  This is patently false, as we have plenty of methods for investigating the past.   

Further, regarding the principle of uniformity; http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/creationist_age_earth.html

Creationists (e.g., 97) frequently claim that “evolutionists”10 use the principle of uniformity to interpret scientific data, but these authors badly misrepresent the modern meaning of uniformitarianism. The principle of uniformity was developed in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, when geologists finally realized that the rocks and features of the Earth were formed by processes similar to those observable today operating over long periods. This was an important breakthrough in scientific thought because it meant that the Earth’s history could be explained as the result of understandable, natural processes, rather than unknowable, supernatural, catastrophic evens. Creationists, however, typically state or imply that the principle of uniformity, as used by scientists, means that the rates of natural processes are always constant.


Page 3;
See above

Page 4;
Attempts to link the biblical flood to a geological event without any presentation of supporting evidence.  A cursory examination of the other evolution thread, will show a welter of evidence against the flood.  Again, mischaracterisation of uniformity (see above again), and attempts to belittle all modern science because, in essence, it has begun disproving the Bible (bottom half).

Page 5;
A fairly absurb continuation of the former bit, which basically lists every great scientist in history... who all happened to be around before the widespread acceptance of evolution.

Page 6;
Very first line shows bias and incorrectness.  Is not actually a scientific critique but an attempt to cite evolution - scientific theory - as 'immoral'.  It is actually a big bit of slander, claiming that anyone looking for non-theological answers is seeking to be, well, evil.

Page 7;
Attempts to claim the Biblical flood would cause fossilisation, but fails to omit that the fossil record explicitly contradicts the flood myth thanks to the order off fossil strata

Mor elater...

 

Offline Cyker

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Evolution is not a Truth, it is a Theory.
Creationism is not a Truth, it is a Theory.
Flying Spaghettimonsterism is not a Truth. It's not even a theory... more like some sick joke thought up by someone with a sense of humor!

Mmm... humor... :p

My personal stance is: Sod it all.

Everyone wants control of your mind these days - The Church, The Government, The **AA, the Spammers, The Entertainment Industry, Microsft, Google, Sony, CNN, Other People.
As someone once said, "I try to keep an open mind, but it's hard because people keep trying to put things into it..."

This is why many of us perceive everyone around us as becoming stupider with each day - We're constantly being told *what* to think, instead of learning ourselves *how* to think...

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
There is a difference between keeping an open mind and keeping it so open your brain falls out. :p

Neither Spagetti Monster nor Creationism nor ID are scientific theories. If you want to keep an open mind that's fine but keeping an open mind means that you don't make any decisions about what is correct and you don't make assertions about what is and what isn't a theory.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
There is a Vicar in Australia by the name of Reverend Robert Evans. Every night he has free, he wanders out into his back garden with his telescope and goes Supernova hunting.

Does he believe in the Big Bang? Yes. Does he believe in Evolution, to quote him, 'I'd be daft not to.'.

God giving the gift of 'Life' is not the same as God single-handedly designing and building every creature on the planet. 'Life' is something far far bigger and more important than a few species on a little ball of rock orbitting a star in the corner of a very average Galaxy. Somehow, I actually find that belittles the Miracle of it all, not enhances.

 

Offline Kernal

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Just out of curiosity Zman What School/college do you go to? My books never have more than three lines about evolution. When we try to talk about it my teacher says we aren`t aloud to talk about and i`m like WTF.  :wtf: Looking back I know a couple of teachers were fired because they talked about these hot issues. I know a poor little girl was expelled because she prayed before she ate lunch. :wtf:

Frankly I don`t know about you guys but, I rather be taught what Zman is being taught then nothing at all. 
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Just out of curiosity Zman What School/college do you go to? My books never have more than three lines about evolution. When we try to talk about it my teacher says we aren`t aloud to talk about and i`m like WTF.  :wtf: Looking back I know a couple of teachers were fired because they talked about these hot issues. I know a poor little girl was expelled because she prayed before she ate lunch. :wtf:

Frankly I don`t know about you guys but, I rather be taught what Zman is being taught then nothing at all. 

(I am literally shocked that any school would be allowed to do such a thing)

You'd rather be taught deliberate disinformation?  Let me put this in context - it's the scientific equivalent of being taught 2+2=5 or pi=3.00.

There is a Vicar in Australia by the name of Reverend Robert Evans. Every night he has free, he wanders out into his back garden with his telescope and goes Supernova hunting.

Does he believe in the Big Bang? Yes. Does he believe in Evolution, to quote him, 'I'd be daft not to.'.

God giving the gift of 'Life' is not the same as God single-handedly designing and building every creature on the planet. 'Life' is something far far bigger and more important than a few species on a little ball of rock orbitting a star in the corner of a very average Galaxy. Somehow, I actually find that belittles the Miracle of it all, not enhances.

And the Vatican endorses evolution, too.  (just not abiogenesis).

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
ok.  Some more (phew)

Page 8; 
Incorrect use of assumption.  Fossil (age) grouping is based on established geological strata.    It also states an absolute mistruth about the validity of geological dating/organisation; it actually quotes 'reality', which is an assumption chose but not defined for the obvious purpose of rubbishing established scientific theory.  Amazingly, it's claiming to know the absolute truth about the dates of fossils; again, no evidence is provided for this premise.

Now, I'll take the 2 quotes on that page.  Note that the term evolutionist is used to mischaracterise evolution as a belief.  Also not that no reference is given for the quote, and qualifications are omitted.  Finally, note the use of '...' to signify that text has been omitted.

Let's view the first quote as it should be (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part4.html#quote4.1)
A detailed study of the geological history of the insects, which I have only sketched, yields evidence of certain progressive changes in structure and development which confirm conclusions on insect evolution reached by morphological and embryological investigations. Although this is still a highly controversial subject, we have enough evidence at hand, derived from these three sources, to indicate the main steps in insect evolution. There is, however, no fossil evidence bearing on the question of insect origin; the oldest insects known show no transition to other arthropods. On the other hand, morphological and embryological studies carried out mainly since 1935 have pointed to the probable origin of the insects from some terrestrial arthropod, related to the existing Symphyla. The time of that origin is pure conjecture, but judging from the fossil record we can only conclude that it was at least as far back as the Lower Carboniferous (Mississippian).

Note that it has been selectively culled of meaning for use in the 'textbook'.

Now, let's take R.J Norman - or, as it should be,  John R. Norman (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-4.html#quote77).  This quote.... is from 1949.

Ok, hopefully now that has illustrated the depths to which these people will stoop to.

Now... I'm getting sick of this.  Literally.  It sickens me, to see what was one of the worlds most advanced scientific nations, now seemingly pumping out these lies (you'll note I'm emphasising lies; because they are just that), in a manner that actively seeks to regress scientific knowledge under the belief that rational exploration of the universe threatens, not Christianity, but the power of this brand of preacher to control people.

It's a textbook of lies.  I can go through another 29 pages of falsehoods, misinformation, mistakes and propaganda.... or I can let you go to http://www.talkorigins.org/, an excellent resource of proper scientific information with references, and learn for yourself.  If you want other sources, find textbooks in the library - real textbooks, not ones written for the pay of fundamentalist groups.

  Given that you've posted a textbook of simple rubbish and cited it as 'fact', I suggest you do just that.

 

Offline Cyker

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Wow, you're really serious about this stuff ain't you? :p

I personally don't mind both theories being taught - My issue is when either is presented as The Only Truth.

I really hate that.

Espescially when people try to suppress one OR the other as well.

Free speech and Free thinking are the way forward I tells ya!

I do agree with aldo's point in that you should NEVER take one point of view as gospel (haha).
Collecting from multiple independent sources and making up your own mind is usually best.

You can't bloody trust any thing these days! :nervous: ;)

The only problem is that if taught this way, most people would see Evolution as the more likely of the two theories, which the Creationists would not like...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 05:01:29 pm by Cyker »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
I'll fully agree that people can hold any opinion they so desire, my problem is with presenting ID as a science, it is not, it's a belief. Science requires testable situations and rigorous testing of the results, scientific theories are under constant attack from other scientists, it's encouraged. If science were to turn around and say 'This is so, and don't you dare argue', it would cease to be science.

ID, however, has failed scientific tests time and time again, it's main argument appears to be 'ID is right because Evolution is wrong.', without providing any testable means to prove this. I remember one essay on 'Why ID is right' that stated quite blatantly at the top of the page that some Evolutionary theories had been left out because 'The reader wouldn't be able to understand them'. Oddly enough, they were the very theories that disproved what the writer was trying to say. In my books 'Not being able to understand' is not a very good launch point for attacking a scientific theory.

If people want to choose ID, fine, but it's not Science and should be nowhere near a Science class.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Quote
I personally don't mind both theories being taught - My issue is when either is presented as The Only Truth.

If creationsim was taught ONLY in a religious studies class, that is one thing. But people want it taught in a SCIENCE classroom. It doesn't belong in a science classroom.

Quote
Espescially when people try to suppress one OR the other as well.

So you think they should teach that the earth was created in 6 days in a science class? You've got to be kidding me.

Quote
Free speech and Free thinking are the way forward I tells ya!

This has nothing to do free speech or free thinking, this whole issue is the american religious right trying to destroy science.

Quote
Now... I'm getting sick of this.  Literally.  It sickens me, to see what was one of the worlds most advanced scientific nations, now seemingly pumping out these lies (you'll note I'm emphasising lies; because they are just that), in a manner that actively seeks to regress scientific knowledge under the belief that rational exploration of the universe threatens, not Christianity, but the power of this brand of preacher to control people.

Now you see why people in the US are so afraid of China; In China they actually teach real science in a science class. What a concept!
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Wow, you're really serious about this stuff ain't you? :p

I personally don't mind both theories being taught - My issue is when either is presented as The Only Truth.

I really hate that.

Espescially when people try to suppress one OR the other as well.

Free speech and Free thinking are the way forward I tells ya!

I do agree with aldo's point in that you should NEVER take one point of view as gospel (haha).
Collecting from multiple independent sources and making up your own mind is usually best.

You can't bloody trust any thing these days! :nervous: ;)

The only problem is that if taught this way, most people would see Evolution as the more likely of the two theories, which the Creationists would not like...


Um... evolution is the more likely of 2 theories.   Actually, the more likely of one theory.....

That's the whole point.  ID is not a scientific theory; it's a hypothesis, as was admitted by its proponents in the Dover School trial.  It is an untested and untestable concept.  Evolution, though, is a theory, and it has been tested and passed those tests multiple times.  Moreso, when evolution fails a test, then evolution is revised to account for the results.  When creationism (ID with the creator and creation method actually specified) fails tests, the tests are dismissed as wrong.

In any serious scientific context, by any rational context, Evolution is both the only and most proven theory explaining the history of life on earth.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
I personally don't mind both theories being taught - My issue is when either is presented as The Only Truth.

I really hate that.

Espescially when people try to suppress one OR the other as well.

Free speech and Free thinking are the way forward I tells ya!


So you want free speech do you? The problem is that you can't simply say there are two theories let's teach them both. There aren't just two theories. The religious right would have you believe that they are and that the two are of at least equally validity to a class of children but it's not that simple. Let me give you a 3rd theory. Aliens did it. And a 4th. Bigfoot did it. And a 5th. I did it.

Now none of those explainations would stand up to a scientific examination but then again neither does creationism. So all 3 of those have equal validity with creationism because all of them have huge scientific flaws. So should we teach every single competing theory and let people make up their minds? Of course not. We'd be here till the end of time if we tried that.
 Let's instead pick the one that is most likely to be correct. The one that stands up the best to scrutiny. Well what do you know? That's Darwinian evolution.

No one is saying that the others have to be censored or forgotten about. We're saying that it is pointless to teach theories with no scientific validity because there are hundreds of thousands of them and they are all equally as bad or as good as each other.
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Offline Mars

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Re: My Textbook Scans....
Could kara be the creator?  :eek2: