[an0n]

I'm of the opinion: **** 'em.

If they wanted to be treated better, they should've forged from fire and steel an empire that spanned the globe.

[Rictor]

As Aldo points out there is a difference between a war of occupation and genocide. Serbia had already been involved in two and you expected the west to sit back and allow them to go for the hatrick?

The difference, when it exists, is most often abstract. On the ground, it's all the same. X number of casualties, X number of refugees, and it doesn't make any concrete difference what you call it.

What I'm saying is that an organization such as the UN has no right to deem a war illegitimate unless it is prepared to deem all wars illegimitate and act to prevent them by all means necessary. The arguement that one war is worse than another is like saying that stabbing someone is OK but shooting them isn't. What happened in Yugoslavia in the 90s is nothing that isn't happening in two dozen places today and has not happened about ten  million times in the past, often on Eurpean soil. Like I said, every notable European leader in history would be convicted of war crimes by today's standards.

And by the way, riddle me this: the UN Security Council never sanctioned the bombing of Yugoslavia. So the UN is out of the picture; and any legitimacy it may bestow. The action was exclusively a NATO attack, and in order to be lawful under the NATO charter one of the alliance members must have been threatened by war. So tell me, which one was it? Britain? America? Even if you accept the arguement that the UN has a mandate to act as a global cop, which I believe it doesn't, the attack wasn't sanctioned by the police. It was carried out by a voluntary group of nations who have no official power beyond their borders, except the power of force. If Bob, Joe and me get together and form a group for mutual protection, this by no means gives us any official authority or legitimacy to police the neighborhood. It's vigilantism, plain and simple.

[aldo_14]

I think there is a bit of a concrete difference between, say, a lack of care in preventing people being killed in crossfire, to having mass executions of women and children.  If the whole Kosovo 'incident' was merely a guerilla war or somesuch, there wouldn't have been nearly the same pressure to intervene.  Granted, political aspirations and the aim of NATO to redefine itself played a significant role in determining that some action was taken, but we can also see the problems of the UNs' relative (and unfortunate) toothlessness when it comes to similar situations such as that in Darfur.

Of course, there's also the question whether, for example, pulling a rapist or mugger off their victim is also 'vigilantism', and to be discouraged.

[AlphaOne]

Bull***t. What are you people on about in kosovo...??? Are you even hearing to what yu are saing?

The ethnic minority DID NOt belong there in the first place. Yugoslavia graeted them gave thema a home and what do they do they want theyr own country?? F***'em I sai kille all for all I care about them. If they want a land of theyr own they should go to their own country which is Albania and NOT Kosovo. That has always been serbian teritory. Oh and dont believe everithing that the American controled press tells you. there was A LOT of censurship involving the Kosovo war. It wasnt like the serbians were dooing all the shooting they were shooting eachother everywhere they met children women etc. The serbian army just retaliated at first to the attack that serbian were subjected in Kosovo !

so dont give me that. I'm from Romania I should know a thing or 2 about what happened there since i have firends that worked lived near /in Serbia and let me tell you what they said on the news is just what  NATO wanted you to see. They were among the last remaining true powers in eastern Europe aside from Russia. they considered it a threat so they attacked it on that sh**** excuse for a humanitarian war.

Also the fact that the Romanian gouvermnet toghether with the president supported NATO was one of the bigges mistakes this country has ever done. The Serbians have ALWAIS been allies with us and when our turn came we stabbed them in the back.

Even so you should see the diference in attitude that serbian's and albanians have towards romanian peace keeping forces and milatary police. They hate NATO yet they respect our people...wanna know why?? Because we hardly had to kill any one of them we usualy negociated or subdued them without actualy killing them , bomming them or anithing like that.

[aldo_14]

Bull***t. What are you people on about in kosovo...??? Are you even hearing to what yu are saing?

The ethnic minority DID NOt belong there in the first place. Yugoslavia graeted them gave thema a home and what do they do they want theyr own country?? F***'em I sai kille all for all I care about them.

That says it all, for me - You're an idiot.

[vyper]

Whatever happened to good old fashioned carpet bombing?

[Mefustae]

Forget carpet bombing, whatever happened to firebombing? We finally come up with a massively effective, conventional way to kill people en masse, and it just sort of fades from practice. What is that?

[AlphaOne]

Oh Aldo i would love I would absolutely love for america to be torn  apart by diferent ethnic minorities. The talk to me about me beeing an idiot. Oh and before you go around acusing me of beeing and idiot come take a look in the Kosovo region where serbians are killed (they are a minority here now, thank NATO) and the Serbian army well is not alowed to retaliate. As I recall the USA was founded on masss killings and genocide and virtualy the exterminations of the native people. also lets not forget the numerous wars that took place for america to expand its teritories. So before you go around pointing a finger at other people look first at yourself.

The reason why I have such resentement towards the minority there is not because they aer of diferent beliefes nationaliti or anithing like that is because I HATE the way they uderstood to thank the Serbians by ripping yet another portion of they country . If you want Independence then do it lean if you can at first but dont go around acting like a terrorist and then expect to be threated like a human beeing cuz I for one have no mercy towards people like these.

[Mars]

Oh Aldo i would love I would absolutely love for America to be torn  apart by different ethnic minorities. The talk to me about me being an idiot. Oh and before you go around accusing me of being and idiot come take a look in the Kissoff region where Serbians are killed (they are a minority here now, thank NATO) and the Serbian army well is not allowed to retaliate. As I recall the USA was founded on Mass killings and genocide and virtually the exterminations of the native people. also lets not forget the numerous wars that took place for America to expand its territories. So before you go around pointing a finger at other people look first at yourself.

The reason why I have such resentment to wards the minority there is not because they ear of different beliefs nationality or anything like that is because I HATE the way they understood to thank the Serbians by ripping yet another portion of they country . If you want Independence then do it lean if you can at first but dint go around acting like a terrorist and then expect to be threated like a human being cuz I for one have no mercy towards people like these.

You can't change the past first off, so let's not drag up the whole Christopher Columbus thing.

And if you state that you hate an entire group of people for any reason (they tore my country apart), then I... well, don't hate you... I put you in a bin in my brain labeled "Bigot" and ignore your opinion. You see, no matter what, that group of people has plenty of innocents, and blanket hatred covers all.

[AlphaOne]

The reason for hating them is not just because they tore a country apart its they way and means they used to do it. Oh and i dont see anyone talking about the serbian wemen and children that were killed at the hands of the people in Kosovo. If you want to be fair then lets be fair. this was a one sided war with NATO crushing Serbia yet dooing nothing to the people in Kosovo. They are not innocent any way you look at it. they bommed and killed children and wemen basicly inocent people too so why are there none of them in any international court trials??

Oh and sorry about gooing so hard against them just read some articles that made boild this morning.

Oh and what about the attacks on the serbian people left there after the war??? How do you describe those??

Oh and Mars i'm not talking about mideval history here i'm talking about the 19 th century and 18th if you want to be fair. Also lets not go around all high and mighty acusing other lifestiles or cultures or the way they ahndle theyr afairs cuz well America is virtualy a baby when compared to ANY european country in fact America is a Baby when compared to most of the countryes on this planet.

Also one good thing came out of the whole Kosovo war the serbians proved that the F117 was by no means as stealthy as they present it! More improvemnt on the tech boys. I'm just saing this because i get all warm inside whenever something that is suposed to be either invisible to rader or virtualy impervoius to most guns gets trashed . It forces engineers to improve the tech therefore making me even more happy.

[aldo_14]

Oh Aldo i would love I would absolutely love for america to be torn  apart by diferent ethnic minorities.

What the hell has that got to do with anything?

The talk to me about me beeing an idiot. Oh and before you go around acusing me of beeing and idiot come take a look in the Kosovo region where serbians are killed (they are a minority here now, thank NATO) and the Serbian army well is not alowed to retaliate.

They were always a minority, ever since the Ottoman empire in about 1400 or so IIRC.  Titos' repression of Kosovan devolution / independence movements only served to contribute to divisions there.  In, for example, an unoffical referendum in the 90s (after Milosovic had moved to reduced Kosovan autonomy) 98% of an 80% turnout (apparently this was verified by independent observers) voted for independence (there was a peaceful campaign at the time).  This perhaps contributed to the relocation of ethnic Serb refugees to Kosovo during the civil war (i.e. diluting the ehtnicity of the area).

Of course, it's scarcely surprising it's unsafe for Serbs in Kosovo nowadays; you wouldn't expect an American to be safe living in, say, Iraq either, even if the exact conditions are different.  but when the Serbian retaliation can be characteristed as killing civillians and expelling them from their homes, or burning down mosques and buildings with no military necessity... it's scarcely surprising there's bitterness.  After all, you wouldn't forgive the US arbitrarily burning down mosques in Iraq just because some terrorist claims to represent all Iraqis.

As I recall the USA was founded on masss killings and genocide and virtualy the exterminations of the native people. also lets not forget the numerous wars that took place for america to expand its teritories. So before you go around pointing a finger at other people look first at yourself.

Ah, i see.

I'm not American.

(Idiot)

The reason why I have such resentement towards the minority there is not because they aer of diferent beliefes nationaliti or anithing like that is because I HATE the way they uderstood to thank the Serbians by ripping yet another portion of they country . If you want Independence then do it lean if you can at first but dont go around acting like a terrorist and then expect to be threated like a human beeing cuz I for one have no mercy towards people like these.

To 'thank' the Serbians?  for what?

Why are you advocating collective punishment - in other words, a war crime?  Does that mean the US can go and kill every arab it finds because of 9/11?  Does it mean Spain could happily carpet bomb the Basque region when ETA launched an attack, or Britain invade Ireland in response to the IRA?

[AlphaOne]

Nope i just said only one side was bommbed. Neither of them was innocent. yet mass punishment of the serbs took place.

Also wasnt referint to you as a person Aldo. God damn mi english. Oh and if you want to go around pointing the finger at the serbian army for war crimes the 30% of the people in kosovo should shot on sight for war crimes wemen and adolescents, young and old , men you name it. This was by no means a war fought against an army it was a war fought on well terorist if you will. they were civilians they attacked the serbians they attacked milatary targets and stuff so they are not inocent. the fact that the serbians sent in the army and  well exagerated about the whole situation is diferent matter altoghether.

Oh and about the last coment refering to resentement what should the serbian army 9what is left of it anywai) do to punish those who attack serbian citizens?? Or rather why arent they in prison?? Instead we see a parade of war criminals in Hague dont we?

I do not dispute the fact that some of them mai be war criminals but I hardly believe all of them are.

And if you want to be fair then the US and UK armyes should be on trial for war crimes along with theyr adiministrations and head of the army. I have yet to see a clean war till now. And dont tell me that its a different story cuz its not if civilians were killed intentionali or not its a crime.

Oh well I gues the statute of superpower grants you certain advantages over the rest of the world like excuses for war crimes and stuff.

[aldo_14]

I didn't understand a word of that, natch.

But at least i'm not advocating the murder of 30% of a community on the basis of 'something my mate told me'.

[AlphaOne]

I wasnt advocating for the murder of 30% of the comunity because something mi mate told. I wasnt advocating for anithing. I was just pointing out that if this would of been a fair war so to speak and if NATO would of wanted to be fair about the whole situation then 30% of the Kosovo comunity should either be in prison or shot for war crimes or at least for beeing a terorist. Oh and you do realise that mi country and serbia have comon bourders dont you? The war took place just 700 km away from where i live.

Also I have yet to see you post and answer to the whole US, Uk and other western powers reason for not beeing on trial on the charge of war crimes. They sure as hell deserve to.

Why? Because they actualy bommbem religious targets and hospitals and stuff both in Kosovo Irak you name it. Weather it was intentionate or nat we cant really say all we have is thery word and "facts" that they present us. But regardless if civilians got killed, innocent civilians i mean, then its a crime isnt it?

[aldo_14]

I wasnt advocating for the murder of 30% of the comunity because something mi mate told. I wasnt advocating for anithing. I was just pointing out that if this would of been a fair war so to speak and if NATO would of wanted to be fair about the whole situation then 30% of the Kosovo comunity should either be in prison or shot for war crimes or at least for beeing a terorist.

And do you care to back up this statement with any, y'know, facts to support the idea of killing 30% of a population? (would that make it ok for the Iraqi government to summarily execute insurgents?)

(fair war?  What, when people are being lined up and shot by professional soldiers for being close to a fighting age?)

Oh and you do realise that mi country and serbia have comon bourders dont you? The war took place just 700 km away from where i live.

Romania is on the border diametrically opposite to the Kosovan side......

Also I have yet to see you post and answer to the whole US, Uk and other western powers reason for not beeing on trial on the charge of war crimes. They sure as hell deserve to.

Why? Because they actualy bommbem religious targets and hospitals and stuff both in Kosovo Irak you name it. Weather it was intentionate or nat we cant really say all we have is thery word and "facts" that they present us. But regardless if civilians got killed, innocent civilians i mean, then its a crime isnt it?

Um, technically it depends on intention and due care.  The actual targeting of civillians ala ethnic cleansing, for example, is different in legal terms to the killing of civillians in the crossfire of active combat (although no less tragic).  The prosecution of a war crime/s charge would thus largely rely on - in the Iraq example - proving that either civillians were actively targeted by the military, or that inadequate care was given to avoid collateral damage (what a nice, neutral word that is.  So much easier on the eye than 'horrible bloody death')

I would welcome seeing Blair prosecuted (impeached) on the basis of participating in an illegal war on Iraq, but whether he could be linked to crime under the Geneva convention is a seperate issue to an indictment under parliamentary law.

[AlphaOne]

Umm so you want me to go and dig up information and news reports of events that happened what...7 or 8 year ago??

You o realise the task at hand dont you.

On a diferent matter it is well strange to see that the Kosovo war was given hier coverage of event leading to it ad events that folowed by our press then the international press. I would expected them to show some more interest in how things develop since it was a war which involved NATO!

[Bobboau]

there is a diference between bombing a SAM site that happened to be on top of a hospetal, and going into a village of 500 and leaveing a village of 200. you see when a force goes into an area and trys to kill an ethnicity it's called genocide, the term "genocide" was coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900–1959), a Polish Jewish legal scholar, in 1943, from the roots genos (Greek for family, tribe or race) and -cide (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre). now this word gets throughen around a lot any time a large number of people are killed, but it only realy applys when you are trying to kill off a genos, when you are trying to clense the earth of all jews, trying to kill all chatholics in Ireland, trying to kill all albanians in kosovo.
what NATO did to serbia was what is known as a 'war'. in a war you have two forces one trying to use force to ,well, force the other to follow there will, wars can be genocidal if the will of one side is that the other no longer exsist. however, NATO had specific terms, namely that serbia pulled out it's forces from kosovo and that milosovich was removed from power and turned in, NATO was not trying to purge the surbian genos from exsistance, but the serbs were trying to perge all Albainians from kosovo, the serbs had done similar things twice in the recent past, so can you blame NATO for being a bit twitchy?

as for the Albanians being terrorists, well it may be true that there were valid targets there, but the way the serbs whent about it was far worse, it'd be like us useing nukes in Iraq.

[aldo_14]

Umm so you want me to go and dig up information and news reports of events that happened what...7 or 8 year ago??

You o realise the task at hand dont you.

So you are just making it all up, then, are you?

On a diferent matter it is well strange to see that the Kosovo war was given hier coverage of event leading to it ad events that folowed by our press then the international press. I would expected them to show some more interest in how things develop since it was a war which involved NATO!

Sorry?

[AlphaOne]

Oki so when albanians go around killing serbian CIVLIANS what o you call that? Or bomb serbian churches or stores or houses what do you call that??? I'm not saing that the serbians were right i'm just saing that the solution wasnt right any way you look at it. Justice was hande down to aonly the serbs while the albanians were neither prosecuted or put on trial. Not all of them but many of them deserved to be on trial and in prison.

Also I see the point as to the whole concept and genocide and where it aplies and where not but i still as hell dont like it. dead civilians=bad thing to me regardeless of the circumstances!


Aldo I uderstood eventualy why I was beeing an idiot but to say that I made up this whole thing simply because i was bit****g about the task at hand is somewhat idotic to say the least. Never said i couldn show proof all i said was that it will be a hard task because of the time perriod that passed.

You know i actualy have to go around looking in the news papers archive several years back dont you??

[aldo_14]

Oki so when albanians go around killing serbian CIVLIANS what o you call that? Or bomb serbian churches or stores or houses what do you call that??? I'm not saing that the serbians were right i'm just saing that the solution wasnt right any way you look at it. Justice was hande down to aonly the serbs while the albanians were neither prosecuted or put on trial. Not all of them but many of them deserved to be on trial and in prison.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4012043.stm

Aldo I uderstood eventualy why I was beeing an idiot but to say that I made up this whole thing simply because i was bit****g about the task at hand is somewhat idotic to say the least. Never said i couldn show proof all i said was that it will be a hard task because of the time perriod that passed.

You know i actualy have to go around looking in the news papers archive several years back dont you??

You have the internet.  Surprisingly, information is posted on the internet.  Fancy that.