Author Topic: Well and truly screwed.  (Read 4820 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
The thing is that the government tends to quietly bring this sort of thing up and then get quietly defeated on it.

ID cards as a case in point. Now it's not time to get complacent and start slapping everyone's backs over this but there is a good chance that once people hear about this it will go the same way that they did.

Quite frankly I'm slowly gathering the opinion that the government know this **** won't fly but are bringing it in to channel money into friendly IT consultancy companies.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
I'm questioning why their hasn't been a national backlash in Britain yet.

Because the bulk of the population - like every country, really - is too ****ing stupid to notice these things happening when the likes of Big Brother is on or Wayne Rooney stubs a toe.


Plus, honestly, no offense to the European countries, it also has a lot to do with your culture. Your culture is more adjusted to the idea of a nanny state, where the government is very controlling of the citizen's lifes. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, that's just how the culture is. So when someone from England sees this, they're more accepting of it, than, say, an American (whose culture places much more emphasis on the individual and their personal responsability for themselves).

If you want an example of what I mean, just look at Healthcare. The European countries are more used to the idea of having a nanny state, so they get Universal Health Care, while the Americans are much more mistrusting of big government, and as thus have a very vocal response to it.


EDIT: This isn't a flame, just a comment. But yea, hopefully this will get defeated.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 09:34:14 am by Unknown Target »

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
I'm not saying this to be an arse, (i can quite happily be an arse without help thank-you)....... How do you think the current political climate would be if the states had lost the independance war? (no not the cnv-301 based one) do you think it would be politically more stable, or would there be a super labour government frakking up the planet instead?

Discuss? maybe......... :confused:
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
I'm questioning why their hasn't been a national backlash in Britain yet.

Because the bulk of the population - like every country, really - is too ****ing stupid to notice these things happening when the likes of Big Brother is on or Wayne Rooney stubs a toe.


Plus, honestly, no offense to the European countries, it also has a lot to do with your culture. Your culture is more adjusted to the idea of a nanny state, where the government is very controlling of the citizen's lifes. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, that's just how the culture is. So when someone from England sees this, they're more accepting of it, than, say, an American (whose culture places much more emphasis on the individual and their personal responsability for themselves).

If you want an example of what I mean, just look at Healthcare. The European countries are more used to the idea of having a nanny state, so they get Universal Health Care, while the Americans are much more mistrusting of big government, and as thus have a very vocal response to it.


EDIT: This isn't a flame, just a comment. But yea, hopefully this will get defeated.

It's not that controlling; I mean, there's a rather significant gap between the provision of healthcare to, say, enforcing behavioural rules.  Something like providing the NHS surely isn't all that different to providing the police or fire services.

EDIt; of course, historically, the British government operated a laissez-faire policy until the voting franchise was widened, anyways; so in reality any government control was something that was initially demanded by the populace rather than forced upon it.

 

Offline Harbinger of DOOM

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=392629&in_page_id=1770

What the **** is wrong with England? Quietly, unobtrusively, with little scorn or debate, the Blair government has passed more totalitarian laws in the name of the nanny state than Bush has in the name of the security state.

Quote
The home life of every child in the country is to be recorded on a national database in the ultimate intrusion of the nanny state, it has emerged.

Computer records holding details of school performance, diet and even whether their parents provide a 'positive role model' for 12 million children will be held by the Government.

Police, social workers, teachers and doctors will have access to the database and have powers to flag up 'concerns' where children are not meeting criteria laid down by the state.

The 'children's index', which will cost the taxpayer £224 million, will even monitor whether youngsters are eating five portions of fruit and vegetables a day, whether they go to church or are struggling to get good marks at school.

It could take just two warning flags on a child's file to trigger an investigation.

I'm not even kidding when I say that, unless the majority of these laws can be stopped or repealed once Blair is out of office, you people better start buying masks and learning how to make plastic explosives.
Quote
'bar-coding' of youngsters.
didn't they say something like that would happen right before the Apocalypse?
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Offline Rictor

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
It's not that controlling; I mean, there's a rather significant gap between the provision of healthcare to, say, enforcing behavioural rules.  Something like providing the NHS surely isn't all that different to providing the police or fire services.

EDIt; of course, historically, the British government operated a laissez-faire policy until the voting franchise was widened, anyways; so in reality any government control was something that was initially demanded by the populace rather than forced upon it.

No, I think he's right, up to a point. For all their flaws, Americans seem to have a basic attitude that the government is not your friend, nor should it be. The whole country was founded on the premise that the government is powerhungry and corrupt by its very nature, and that strict controls must be in place at all times to prevent them from going crazy. Now I obviously can't vouch for a half a billion Europeans, but there seems to be a general feeling that the government exists to make life better, and that it is much more capable of handling problems than mere mortals. Once the role of the government shifts from preventing bad things to promoting good things, a subtle yet important distinction, everything they do can be passed of as "for your own good".

Sadly, the general trend I see has nothing to do with the UK or with Blair, but rather is global and progresses linearly. As technology progresses, our ability to monitor people and rob them of their privacy in a thousand little ways also grows. And slowly, I forsee all governments moving in the direction of less privacy, under many justifications and specific cirumstances, but all in the same direction nevertheless. If we posses the ability, chances are that sooner or later all governments will make use of that ability, regardless of the specifc nation or government in power. And that is the most dangerous thing of all. The unseen, creeping kind of control, the one that arrives with decades, not months or years, and simple becomes part of everyday life.

I mean, how does this law differ seriously in spirit from the 3 million CCTV cameras monitoring London at all times, capturing each Londoner on film 300 times a day? It doesn't.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
How do you think the current political climate would be if the states had lost the independance war?

They did.

Oh, did you mean the first one?

EDIt; of course, historically, the British government operated a laissez-faire policy until the voting franchise was widened, anyways; so in reality any government control was something that was initially demanded by the populace rather than forced upon it.

:lol: That's what they want you to think!  First rule of totalitarianism: let the stupid people vote. :p

 

Offline vyper

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
There wouldn't have been a war had those who made the call chosen to implement a federal system across all British territory. Who cares about having a Queen when we could have had the world?
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Offline Harbinger of DOOM

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
Quote
No, I think he's right, up to a point. For all their flaws, Americans seem to have a basic attitude that the government is not your friend, nor should it be. The whole country was founded on the premise that the government is powerhungry and corrupt by its very nature, and that strict controls must be in place at all times to prevent them from going crazy. Now I obviously can't vouch for a half a billion Europeans, but there seems to be a general feeling that the government exists to make life better, and that it is much more capable of handling problems than mere mortals. Once the role of the government shifts from preventing bad things to promoting good things, a subtle yet important distinction, everything they do can be passed of as "for your own good".
Yeah, thats one thing I don't get....... why do people think that? I mean.... the government is full of power-hungry politicians, people shouldn't be so confident of their leadership.
I guess people just don't notice these little things that happen, one day the government is a democracy.... the next its the spittin' image of Soviet Russia.
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Offline Apathy

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
Quote
No, I think he's right, up to a point. For all their flaws, Americans seem to have a basic attitude that the government is not your friend, nor should it be. The whole country was founded on the premise that the government is powerhungry and corrupt by its very nature, and that strict controls must be in place at all times to prevent them from going crazy. Now I obviously can't vouch for a half a billion Europeans, but there seems to be a general feeling that the government exists to make life better, and that it is much more capable of handling problems than mere mortals. Once the role of the government shifts from preventing bad things to promoting good things, a subtle yet important distinction, everything they do can be passed of as "for your own good".
Yeah, thats one thing I don't get....... why do people think that? I mean.... the government is full of power-hungry politicians, people shouldn't be so confident of their leadership.
I guess people just don't notice these little things that happen, one day the government is a democracy.... the next its the spittin' image of Soviet Russia.

Its because over here in England we hire politions to run the country, not capitalists and oil tycoons. Believe it or not, but blair doesn't have nearly as much power over the country as bush, even though he represents us.

Personally I like the "nanny state" thing here in europe, makes life alot simplier when healthcare is taken care of, and the government is constantly arguing about how to make life better instead of who to attack for oil and whatnot.

 

Offline vyper

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
Quote
Personally I like the "nanny state" thing here in europe, makes life alot simplier when healthcare is taken care of, and the government is constantly arguing about how to make life better instead of who to attack for oil and whatnot.

I'm not sure what to do first, rip your heart out for labelling the NHS as part of the nanny state, or beat you for saying the actual nanny state is a good thing.
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Offline pecenipicek

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
sometimes i really wonder, why the **** do people not care? here its more or less that you get screwed over by everyone. you just have to decide who will screw you over less... :doubt:




also nation-wide health services are an excellent thing, here in croatia, up till 18, you have free healthcare and after 18, it goes from you family's fund, until you start your job and decide where to go with pension, which agency and stuff, which are going to keep your money. more or less works.


yes, define what nanny state means actually?
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Offline Harbinger of DOOM

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
Quote
No, I think he's right, up to a point. For all their flaws, Americans seem to have a basic attitude that the government is not your friend, nor should it be. The whole country was founded on the premise that the government is powerhungry and corrupt by its very nature, and that strict controls must be in place at all times to prevent them from going crazy. Now I obviously can't vouch for a half a billion Europeans, but there seems to be a general feeling that the government exists to make life better, and that it is much more capable of handling problems than mere mortals. Once the role of the government shifts from preventing bad things to promoting good things, a subtle yet important distinction, everything they do can be passed of as "for your own good".
Yeah, thats one thing I don't get....... why do people think that? I mean.... the government is full of power-hungry politicians, people shouldn't be so confident of their leadership.
I guess people just don't notice these little things that happen, one day the government is a democracy.... the next its the spittin' image of Soviet Russia.

Its because over here in England we hire politions to run the country, not capitalists and oil tycoons. Believe it or not, but blair doesn't have nearly as much power over the country as bush, even though he represents us.

Personally I like the "nanny state" thing here in europe, makes life alot simplier when healthcare is taken care of, and the government is constantly arguing about how to make life better instead of who to attack for oil and whatnot.

Firstly, I never said I'm backing the idiotic things that Bush does, I'm simply saying that you should simply take a look at how Blair is running your country.
Secondly, I hate the way Bush is running my country. He's a complete idiot, I can't wait until the next election so we can boot his ass out of the White House!
Thirdly, I cannot possibly imagine how anyone could like their government spying on them. It makes absolutely no sense.

*edit 1*
BTW, Don't you people know what Wikipedia is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanny-state

*edit 2*
Check this out!
A fairly blunt point of view on this issue, but nonetheless accurate.
Though, I admit... most of it is ranting.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 08:31:05 pm by Harbinger of DOOM »
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Offline Sarafan

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
Thankfully I dont have to worry about such type of projects here, the politicians here are of such level that it would take years just to propose such thing, decades till it would actually be implemented and even then it wouldnt work because they would be too busy stealing any money diverted to it. :yes:  The only reason the government doesnt work here is because of itself, its really pratical. :lol:

 

Offline Harbinger of DOOM

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
The only reason the government doesnt work here is because of itself, its really pratical. :lol:
*snicker*
:D
You mean here in the U.S.?
Too true....
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Offline Sarafan

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
I meant the great, great brazillian government. Really, some of the political scandals that happen here are priceless.

 

Offline Harbinger of DOOM

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
Oh.
Is there anyone here whos from the U.S.?
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Offline Drew

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
 :yes:
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Offline Harbinger of DOOM

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
Ok, thats 1....
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Well and truly screwed.
No, I think he's right, up to a point. For all their flaws, Americans seem to have a basic attitude that the government is not your friend, nor should it be. The whole country was founded on the premise that the government is powerhungry and corrupt by its very nature, and that strict controls must be in place at all times to prevent them from going crazy. Now I obviously can't vouch for a half a billion Europeans, but there seems to be a general feeling that the government exists to make life better, and that it is much more capable of handling problems than mere mortals. Once the role of the government shifts from preventing bad things to promoting good things, a subtle yet important distinction, everything they do can be passed of as "for your own good".

Sadly, the general trend I see has nothing to do with the UK or with Blair, but rather is global and progresses linearly. As technology progresses, our ability to monitor people and rob them of their privacy in a thousand little ways also grows. And slowly, I forsee all governments moving in the direction of less privacy, under many justifications and specific cirumstances, but all in the same direction nevertheless. If we posses the ability, chances are that sooner or later all governments will make use of that ability, regardless of the specifc nation or government in power. And that is the most dangerous thing of all. The unseen, creeping kind of control, the one that arrives with decades, not months or years, and simple becomes part of everyday life.

I mean, how does this law differ seriously in spirit from the 3 million CCTV cameras monitoring London at all times, capturing each Londoner on film 300 times a day? It doesn't.

Well, this european trust of governments is basically a watered down version the whole divine right of kings, which itself was inherited from the orientalized late Roman monarchy (Aurelian, Diocletian), which took its form from the many eastern kingdoms that Rome conquered as a republic, which took their form from ancient egypt and sumeria. If you're in the mood for blaming someone, blame Diocletian. He's the one who introduced this plague into the western world (heh, being an american I guess I fit your description very well).

And while you're absolutely right about the technology thing, I wouldn't say that the changes are too small to be perceptible taken one at a time. From personal experience, they are actually quite noticable, but they're always just below the threshhold where the silent majority (or more likely, any vocal minority of sufficient strength) is willing to stick they're necks out to do something about it.

And we westerners are so comfortable and confident in the success of our democratic systems that even if we were less lackadasical in protecting them, most of us still don't grasp the massive changes that technology introduces. Which is why I place my hope in the third world democracies, ether in Latin America (if Chavez really does start quashing dissent on a large scale, I don't have any doubt that he is going to get himself overthrown eventually one way or another), Africa (once they solve their population and economic problems, the latter of which basically translates to telling the western corporations to **** off), and the Middle East (Iran is getting better, slowly but surely, as is Egypt), because any democracies that are born there are going to have to be more up to date, per se, to the issues that all this technology is introducing. Not to mention that there are few things more awesome than democratic spirit in the full flush of a successful coup by people who've never tasted democracy before.

Speaking of which, any similar stuff going on in canada?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 12:45:16 am by Mr. Vega »
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