[Ace]

You will regret the day you turned your back on your God and Creator. Feel my wrath!

*Activates ribbon-device and implodes Ace's skull*

*Adria smushes Mefustae from across the galaxy using her weird kinky telekenetic powahs, and then resurrects Ace.*

[TrashMan]

Because we would not know evil, and if we did not know evil then we would not know good either, it's the difference between joy and sorrow. If we did not know sorrow then we would have nothing to compare our joy to and therefore not be able to appreciate it.

Blah.. I say there can be Good without Evil.. Both are not needed. You can compare joy with the time you do not feel you (but are not sad either) It is a big difference

By Herra Tohtori

If there is no light, there is no shadow either. It's just dark. But as soon as there is light, there are also shadows - unless the light is in the middle of a n empty room. Then there's just light. Existence of a shadow requires at least two things:

1. Light source
2. Object to cast shadow

Rexcelently put. Tehre must be something to cast a shadow, to create darkness.

[TrashMan]

And what is so arrogant about beliving God cares about us? After all he created us!

so you claim, with absolutely no evidence to support your claims thereof - and yet you (yes YOU Specifically as well as you generally) attempt to force other people to live according to your beliefs as if you had evidence they were real.

You don't have one scrap of evidence - notta one.  Therefore that makes your beliefs delusions and your behavior in presuming that you are correct and get to tell others what to do arrogance.

No I don't have evidence of it. But you have no evidence to disporove it either.

And since when am I forcing anyone to accpet my beliefs? Love, mercy, btortherhoos, generosity and all that jaz aren't exclusive to Christianity - they are the backbone of any decent moral system, so wanting people to act that way is not arrogance.

Sez you. You THINK they caused more evil than good but that can hardly be mesured (and news of good deeds don't travel as far as news of baddeeds) or proven...

it's fairly easy to measure good vs ill and religions come very down on the side of ill. 

I want so see those stats. Where are they? How on earth can you possibly mesure the good/bad thnigs people do becosue of religion? Did you perhaps write down every act of kindness any religios person ever did? Every person killed in the name of religion? I don't think so....

By Mustafae

The general idea is that humans are made in God's image, we are his ultimate creation [other than curly-fries, that is], and we're generally important. Even with a universe bigger than we can possibly fathom, God pays attention only to us, as we are special. Moreover, the general gist of the Bible indicates that we are the only life in the universe and soforth, a preposterous notion unto itself.

It doesn't say we're special in any way.. "Created in His image" can mean a lot of things - and never does it say that such attribute s reserved exclusivly for us. Maby he made other inteligent life out there, also "in His image" and thus they would be equally important.

[Mefustae]

Blah.. I say there can be Good without Evil.. Both are not needed. You can compare joy with the time you do not feel you (but are not sad either) It is a big difference

What? That makes no sense, it's like light & shadow, yin & yang; one inexorably needs the other to exist. If you disagree, try and come up with an example of something that can be said to be "on" in a functional sense, and yet at no time can be considered "off". Not just a light without an offswitch, come up with something that functions and cannot 'not' function. It's the very same thing.

It doesn't say we're special in any way.. "Created in His image" can mean a lot of things - and never does it say that such attribute s reserved exclusivly for us. Maby he made other inteligent life out there, also "in His image" and thus they would be equally important.

And maybe God has a tail, but he left it out of the design because he thought it looked a bit 'off'. You can say 'maybe' to justify anything, but it's pretty damned clear that the Bible implies Humanity is something special, I mean who else does it say he gives the gift of speech, self-awareness, and higher-level intelligence. That self-imposed importance alone makes you people [and curly-fries] arrogant.


w00t! 2,222 posts.

[Mathwiz6]

Haha, I like how all debates even barely relating to religion turn into "existience of god" debates. They get nowhere, but they are really fun 


I have decided, since your god is all powerful, and interested in prolonging the life of my family, giving me $, good fortune, and happiness, that he is most deserving of my doing whatever he wants me to. Um... (Ignore that, uber strawman..)

Wanting people to do that is arrogance, when you send it with a package of "Worship my almighty being, yours is a delusion"

For crying out loud, yours is more likely to be a delusion, given the huge quantity of potential religions existing. Since most of the christians can't agree on minor points, and split the religion, the odds of having some sort of guidance to your religion seem rather low.

Since I am made in my god's image, I have many of his attributes, such as the ability to distinguish good and evil. Thus, I have free will, thus I am not born with original sin, thus... Heresy!   

As I am created in god's image, he imbued me with many negative attributes. Are those His attributes, or did he put them in for fun? So... is he malevolent? Nope Satan put em in. So... God didn't remove them? Sounds pretty malevolent to me...

Oi, mefustae! The universe! Life! Everything!  Existence!

Anyway, Pi is as good to worship as anything (though I don't really). After all, haven't you read Contact? Obviously divinely inspired...

Good and evil are subjective, and are always in comparison to the current standard of behavior. Any clearly defined good or evil must be universal, universally accepted, and will last forever. Otherwise, it is totally subjective. Universally accepted does not = religion.


You can compare happiness to when you don't feel it, but when you don't feel it is your normal state, and subjective. If you are normally happy, your regular state will be happy, If you are normally sad, the opposite.

Mmmm.... curly fries....

Saying something subjective is measurable is actually true. But, the amount of data and processing needed is obscene. You need to know the upbringing of every person in your era and time period, you need to know the relative definitions of good or evil at the time, the exact phychology of any given person, and a bunch of other impossible stuff.

Subjective is measurable, if you use relative definition.

I say that God clearly doesn't care about His image, or he would probably have made a more accurate bible.

OK, and the ultimately cynical argument: Why should I believe in something if there is no proof that it exists!  Wow. There can be no blame attributed to me for not believing in something that there is no proof for, it just means that I prefer to think and question.

Yes, I don't believe that the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy contains the ultimate moral code. Sue me. OMFG, J00 d0N'7 8313iv3 H1tchHik3r$? J00 @re 831ng $3nt 43v@h 2 @ p1@c3 0f 373rn@1 $uFf3r1ng! C0$ 1 $@1d $o! B1i3v3 17! 0r 31$3!

[Kazan]

No I don't have evidence of it. But you have no evidence to disporove it either.

the fact that you have no evidence for it makes it irrational and a delusion to believe in it - the fact that there isn't any evidence against doesn't change that. 

And since when am I forcing anyone to accpet my beliefs?

since you vote for people who legislate their (your) religion into government

Love, mercy, btortherhoos, generosity and all that jaz aren't exclusive to Christianity - they are the backbone of any decent moral system, so wanting people to act that way is not arrogance.

you're right - but those aren't the only things that christianity teaches - it also teaches bigotry, hatred, ethnocentrism and (if you ignore most of the new testament like most fundies do) war mongering

I want so see those stats. Where are they? How on earth can you possibly mesure the good/bad thnigs people do becosue of religion? Did you perhaps write down every act of kindness any religios person ever did? Every person killed in the name of religion? I don't think so....

why should I try to explain the obvious to the deaf?

[Bobboau]

"ethnocentrism" oh, come now, name one culture on the planet that doesn't!

[Kazan]

just because almost everyone does it, doesn't mean it's right.

[Mathwiz6]

Just for fun: Doesn't disparging the majority undermine democracy?

Eh, well, everyone seems to do it. 

[Kazan]

Just for fun: Doesn't disparging the majority undermine democracy?

no, and to suggest that it does is illogical

[TrashMan]

No I don't have evidence of it. But you have no evidence to disporove it either.

the fact that you have no evidence for it makes it irrational and a delusion to believe in it - the fact that there isn't any evidence against doesn't change that. 

There's nothnig delusional or irrational to belive in God.
Obviously your logic is flawed.

And since when am I forcing anyone to accpet my beliefs?

since you vote for people who legislate their (your) religion into government

Eh? WTF? I'm afraid you lost me here.....especially with the forcing part

Love, mercy, btortherhoos, generosity and all that jaz aren't exclusive to Christianity - they are the backbone of any decent moral system, so wanting people to act that way is not arrogance.

you're right - but those aren't the only things that christianity teaches - it also teaches bigotry, hatred, ethnocentrism and (if you ignore most of the new testament like most fundies do) war mongering

Christianity doesn't teach the latter part. Crazy fundies do not a religion make.

why should I try to explain the obvious to the deaf?

Becouse it's not obvious.

[Kazan]

There's nothnig delusional or irrational to belive in God.
Obviously your logic is flawed.

you need to consult a dictionary.  Belief without evidence is by definition irrational belief. 

Obviously your logic is flawed.

no, your arrogance is showing

Eh? WTF? I'm afraid you lost me here.....especially with the forcing part

You support "in god we trust" on the money "under god" in the pledge correct?
You support "intelligent design" in science class correct?
You vote for "moral values" candidates correct?
You vote for "anti-abortion" candidates correct?

if you answered yes to any of these you are forcing your religion onto others

Christianity doesn't teach the latter part. Crazy fundies do not a religion make.

consult the old testament sometime - much of it is uncontradicted by the new

Becouse it's not obvious.

to the deaf (IE to someone who wouldn't listen anyway)

[Goober5000]

You vote for "anti-abortion" candidates correct?

if you answered yes to any of these you are forcing your religion onto others

You vote for "pro-choice" candidates, correct?

Then by your own reasoning you are forcing your beliefs onto others.  Unless you live in an anarchy, government always operates according to a set of principles.

to the deaf (IE to someone who wouldn't listen anyway)

The irony is most likely lost on you.

[Kazan]

You vote for "pro-choice" candidates, correct?

Then by your own reasoning you are forcing your beliefs onto others.  Unless you live in an anarchy, government always operates according to a set of principles.

goober you do realize that is SELF CONTRADICTORY - a pro-choice candidate is in favor of CHOICE.  They're not forcing you to get an abortion, anti-abortion candidates ARE trying to force you NOT to get one however.  You see the difference

under one you have the CHOICE to do something - you also can choose not to do it
under the other you HAVE NO CHOICE

please tell me you are seriously not that dense...


oh right.. you're christian - anything that allows other people to choose whether or not to adhere to YOUR beliefs or not is oppression

if only i could find that pie chart with the "HElp! we're being oppressed!" bubble over the 74% christian

[Goober5000]

You vote for "pro-choice" candidates, correct?

Then by your own reasoning you are forcing your beliefs onto others.  Unless you live in an anarchy, government always operates according to a set of principles.

goober you do realize that is SELF CONTRADICTORY - a pro-choice candidate is in favor of CHOICE.  They're not forcing you to get an abortion, anti-abortion candidates ARE trying to force you NOT to get one however.  You see the difference

under one you have the CHOICE to do something - you also can choose not to do it
under the other you HAVE NO CHOICE

We have flat prohibitions against drunk driving, don't we?  Murder?  Pedophilia?  Cannabilism?  As far as I know, there's no "choice" allowed for a person considering one of those crimes.

Imagine if a politician campaigning for office said this: "We would prefer that people not kill and eat their neighbors.  We'd like to minimize the amount of cannabilism that goes on in the world today.  However, if a person decides that cannabilism is the best option for them, we won't stand in their way."  It's absurd.

Just as it's wrong to overtly commit evil (i.e. murder), it is also wrong to stand by and do nothing while evil continues (i.e. abortion).  "All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing," n'est-ce pas?

[IPAndrews]

God came to me in a dream last night. He said "Forget it. I really can't be arsed". So you know.

[aldo_14]

We have flat prohibitions against drunk driving, don't we?  Murder?  Pedophilia?  Cannabilism?  As far as I know, there's no "choice" allowed for a person considering one of those crimes.

Imagine if a politician campaigning for office said this: "We would prefer that people not kill and eat their neighbors.  We'd like to minimize the amount of cannabilism that goes on in the world today.  However, if a person decides that cannabilism is the best option for them, we won't stand in their way."  It's absurd.

Just as it's wrong to overtly commit evil (i.e. murder), it is also wrong to stand by and do nothing while evil continues (i.e. abortion).  "All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing," n'est-ce pas?

Any man can arbitrarily that which he does not like to be evil.  Some people use the same basis for arguements to justify stoning for 'immorality'.  By that basis, I can decide christianity is 'evil' and must be prohibited; I don't need to provide a rational explanation, just a belief.

(Surely the true test is in measuring harm, and thus what is evil, rationally?)

Whilst any voting decision is (to a certain degree) pushing a political belief forward, that is seperate from the composition of that belief; if I vote against a police state, it is clearly different to voting for a police state, even if the actual act of voting is identical in both cases.

Pro-choice is simply permitting individuals to make a personal, moral, choice upon an issue where the harm is not rationally or legally measurably as it is when regarding to crimes where there is a clearly living individual.  Whether you like it or not, there is  no scientific 'proof' that states a foetus is a human individual with the rights accorded thereof; there is, however, such a proof for the mother, which is why her interests - mental and physical health - are given precedence within law.

  It's unfair and fallacious to compare cannibalism - or any crime against a person - to abortion so long as there is no concrete basis within law that defines a foetus/blastocycst/etc as a human individual.  Or, if you really want to make that comparison, recognise it's your own belief and legislating on the basis of that would be forcing others to follow that belief (whereas pro-choice legislation allows others to have a different belief - it obviously doesn't hold them to following a 'for' or 'against' opinion).

You vote for "moral values" candidates correct?
You vote for "anti-abortion" candidates correct?

if you answered yes to any of these you are forcing your religion onto others

I don't think the (quoted) latter 2 are necessarily always of a religious basis.

God came to me in a dream last night. He said "Forget it. I really can't be arsed". So you know.

What, not even any lottery numbers?  ****.

[Mathwiz6]

On the other hand, while cannabalism is outlawed, if you do it, it's treated as first degree murder.

If you do it in a christian framework, you get sent to a place of eternal condemnation, damnation and torture. For all eternity. Remaining conscious the whole time.

Seems to me we have a slight difference in punishment...

Guess which one scares people more?

[Colonol Dekker]

Scientology most likely.......

[Kazan]

If you do it in a christian framework, you get sent to a place of eternal condemnation, damnation and torture. For all eternity.

no you don't, you just have to ask god's forgiveness and you will go to heaven.  That's the official doctrine of all christian sects.  and yes, that does mean hitler went to heaven if he asked for forgiveness - I have know churchies that say I will burn in hell for not bowing down to their insanity, while hitler, eric rudolph, etc are in heaven