[Sarafan]

And only thanks to the dirty was he able to see that the bridge of faith was merely a illusion and was in fact a real bridge.

[WeatherOp]

Wow, this is some funny stuff. <-----what happens when a Christian reads this stuff.

[Kazan]

Wow, this is some funny stuff. <-----what happens when a Christian reads this stuff.

try reading the original article - most of this thread is an off-topic tangent started by a comment by Kalfireth


  <-- what happens when someone with their critical thinking skills intact listens to a christian     

[WeatherOp]

Wow, this is some funny stuff. <-----what happens when a Christian reads this stuff.

try reading the original article - most of this thread is an off-topic tangent started by a comment by Kalfireth


  <-- what happens when someone with their critical thinking skills intact listens to a christian     

 <-----what a Christian does when he hears a response from a person with his critical thinking skills intact, but only his critical thinking skills intact.

[Kazan]

 <-----what a Christian does when he hears a response from a person with his critical thinking skills intact, but only his critical thinking skills intact.

was that supposed to be a circumcision cheapshot?

if so you just forfeit any right to make a statement in this thread, please move along and play with the children your age.  We adults have discussions to be engaged in

[WeatherOp]

 <-----what a Christian does when he hears a response from a person with his critical thinking skills intact, but only his critical thinking skills intact.

was that supposed to be a circumcision cheapshot?

if so you just forfeit any right to make a statement in this thread, please move along and play with the children your age.  We adults have discussions to be engaged in

No, Actually I didn't even think of circumcision, mostly because I don't give a hoot about it like most people, but thanks for bringing that to my attention, makes the comment more valid.

[Kazan]

No, Actually I didn't even think of circumcision, mostly because I don't give a hoot about it like most people, but thanks for bringing that to my attention, makes the comment more valid.

actually it makes the comment less valid. and just because "most people" do something doesn't make it right.  Perhaps if you actually spent time learning you would give a hoot.  http://www.noharmm.org/advantage.htm and http://www.noharmm.org/snip.html

both are SFW (unless work doesn't like medical drawings on the second one) and cites scientific sources.

be my guest

--------------

Let's get back on topic please.  Original topic was: study shows that the most religious nations are also the ones with the most societal disfunction

[Goober5000]

And it is logically impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God from within the confines of our universe, as God exists outside the universe.

Ah, blind faith. It's something I have never understood. It is like believing and having faith in an invisible bridge and when you try to cross that bridge, you just fall into your death on your first step.

I said you can't prove the existence or nonexistence of God, but you can find evidence to support it.  Faith isn't blind; it's the act of taking a step forward based on incomplete knowledge.

Hitler was Austrian Catholic by upbringing, which may have contributed to his anti-semeticism. Don't get started on any "Catholics aren't Christian" comments please.

The occult that they were involved in was also primarily tied to Judaeo-Christian tradition as well.

There's a big difference between upbringing and belief.  He wouldn't have tried to rewrite the Bible in his own image if he actually believed it.

Even Indiana Jones puts dirt on his bridges of faith before steppin' on 'em

When was the last time you watched the movie?  He puts dirt on the bridge after he steps on it.

Then why does he send non-believers to Hell? Or do you not believe non-believers go to Hell? If I am not mistaken, all people who do not lead a Christian life are, according to the Bible (or some other, more recent religious work (i.e. Dante's Inferno, which has worked its way into religion so well that some uneducated people do not know that the things originally stated in it are not a part of the Bible)), doomed to suffer in the pits of Hell?

Seems to me that God, if he is all powerful, has permitted some pretty evil things. Like the Holocaust. Even if he gave people free will, could he not have turned Hitler into a pillar of salt, or rained fire on him from the heavens, like God seemed to have a knack for in the Old Testament days?

I found an interesting theory recently that says God does what he does because he wants to demonstrate his Godness.  He is both merciful and just, and he wants to demonstrate both, but he allows people to choose what demonstration they receive.

Using that interpretation, God wanted to demonstrate his justice by pouring out his wrath on Hitler.  Therefore he allowed Hitler to run up an enormous wrath debt.

Maybe you can't prove or disprove God, but there are things proven by science that directly contradict the word of God. For example, the Big Bang theory: states that the universe was created approx. 15 billion years ago. Dinosaur skeletons: carbon date to 65 million years ago. Both of these occurred before the time that the Bible states the universe (or at least the earth, for the second example) was created. Evolution: goes against the creation theory as well, yet it has been observed (at least with bacteria and other such small organisms with short life-cycles).

First of all, none of us have outlived the universe, so we don't know for sure that it's 15 billion years old. More likely, God has a different perspective on time than we do.  In any case, the Bible isn't really a scientific text; it's more of a historical text.

Also, you said God exists outside the universe. Where in the Bible, or any previous holy books, does it say that?

If God created the universe, he couldn't have been contained by it.  QED.

Christians: you show me why you disbelieve in every god but yours, and I'll show you how easy it is to simply go one more.

I believe in other gods.  I just don't worship them.

[Bobboau]

Anyway, I worship pi!

I am a follower of the great and mighty phi, listen to me as I spread the word of the whole that is to the greater part as the greater part is to the lesser part. Two things cannot join without a third component, that being a bond which unites them; and the greatest bond is the one that makes the most complete unification where the two things and the bond have all joined to become one.come and be one with the unification of all and none, the perfection of imminent self referentiality. join me in my following of the way of the golden mean, or suffer in the comeing discontiguality when the Divine Proportion shall walk the earth and (with a little help from it's followers) shall wage a great and holy jihad to purge all the non-beleivers and heritic followers of e, i, sigma, and the dark Embree-Trefethen constant! heed my word child and walk the true path! and never be measured by anything other than a proportan of yourself again!

φ
the way of the golden mean

[Nuke]

this thread has quickly turned into an intelectual penis mesuring contest. unfortunately because of the chirstians and the jews and their genital mutilation kazan will come up a little short.

anyway i think anthropomorphing god/the universe is a load of bs. that is merely a tool for conversion. they want to make god something people can relate to and do this by giving it human characteristics. this is where prophets come into play, they help make god more human. if the god has a son then he must be a person. somone please post a pic of the friendly jesus from dogma

fortunately there are religious leaders out there that understand the metiphorical nature of religion and arent ashamed to hide it, theese get a thumbs up from me. these include catholics and jews and a few others. and definately the televangelists of the usa are not members of this club. many of the smaller churches have warped views of the gospel. snake handelers and wannabe prophets for example, and are really just out for power. basic cult phenomenon.

as for religion causing genocide, directly going out and murdering people, no, but it has made it possible. religion offers a moral escape hatch. your sins will be forgiven so long as you wirship this god or this church. furthermore the church also has an adgenda, conversion and expansion. therefor the church will take advantage of any political means to achieve their goals. like with the catolics and the nazis, "if you make us your offitial religion wel overlook your little holocaust, hell wel even forgive your ss troops". if the political movement fails as the nazis did, the church could always say "we were forced".

one thing the catholic church knew about was that it was an institution, it had systems in place for many social issues. its important to know that the usa wasnt founded by catholics, it was colonized by some rebel denomination (and i forget which denomination it was) who didnt understand why catholosism was structured as it was. the notion was that organized religion was bad. i find this bs because religion is an organization. the oposite would be heathen or pagan belief, a scaled-down tribal belief system that is really only in place for a small number of people and is not compatable with large scale civilization. anyway the way religion was established in the colonies was a fairly new denomination, and it took the bible very literally. free of the majority of the catholic influence they were allowed to structure the religion in any way people saw fit. this is where the usa's tendancy to in your face religion comes from. the bible essentially stops being a historical account and starts being called "truth".

[Mefustae]

Sorry to keep this tangent going, but I just can't say no to a good religious discussion. They're the bread & butter of entertaining forums.

I said you can't prove the existence or nonexistence of God, but you can find evidence to support it.  Faith isn't blind; it's the act of taking a step forward based on incomplete knowledge.

But then this isn't really 'blind faith', it's 'misguided faith', in that people believe something when they really should know better. But then, that's neither here nor there, I don't have any right to say what you can and cannot believe. But still... what the hell, man!

When was the last time you watched the movie?  He puts dirt on the bridge after he steps on it.

Quite true, good to see someone finally corrected that blatant mis-truth.

I found an interesting theory recently that says God does what he does because he wants to demonstrate his Godness.  He is both merciful and just, and he wants to demonstrate both, but he allows people to choose what demonstration they receive.

Based on simple logic that everyone is a "sinner" at birth, and "sinners" go to Hell for eternal damnation and soforth, then it stands to reason that individuals killed before they hear the 'word of God' [for lack of a better term] would therefore go to Hell. I know this is a really cheap shot, but i've never been able to give me a real answer on it, so i'll just ask; explain to me how sending the millions of babies killed every year into the fires of eternal torment is "merciful" and/or "just". Seriously now, i'm curious as to how Christians such as yourself can deal with that.

Anyway, how can you deal with the logical contradiction of your 'merciful & just' God being the very same God that committed genocide, advocated rape and murder, and was generally a total bad-ass? What, he straightened himself out when he had kids?

Using that interpretation, God wanted to demonstrate his justice by pouring out his wrath on Hitler.  Therefore he allowed Hitler to run up an enormous wrath debt.

That makes no sense. He lived a life of luxury and power, had people grovelling at his feet right up until the end, died with the woman he loved, and will be remembered forever. Damn, I don't envy that one bit!

First of all, none of us have outlived the universe, so we don't know for sure that it's 15 billion years old.

One of us has; the Universe, and she'll tell you quite a bit if you know how to read her.

More likely, God has a different perspective on time than we do.

So, you're saying he's effectively playing SimCity on a universal scale, flipping the little time-compression thingies at will. Uh... huh...

If God created the universe, he couldn't have been contained by it.  QED.

The Universe is everything that exists. Therefore, if God is not within the Universe, he does not exist.

I believe in other gods.  I just don't worship them.

I'm genuinely perplexed by that statement. Could you elaborate?

[Goober5000]

But then this isn't really 'blind faith', it's 'misguided faith', in that people believe something when they really should know better. But then, that's neither here nor there, I don't have any right to say what you can and cannot believe. But still... what the hell, man!

Maybe so.  But I find there's sort of a symbiotic relationship between God and faith... you start with baby steps and then progress.  The more faith you have, the more you see of God, and vice versa.  It's like trust.

Anyway, how can you deal with the logical contradiction of your 'merciful & just' God being the very same God that committed genocide, advocated rape and murder, and was generally a total bad-ass? What, he straightened himself out when he had kids?

That's no contradiction; that's a demonstration of justice.  Certain civilizations deserved to be destroyed, so God destroyed them.

The real paradox is trying to reconcile mercy and justice, and figuring out how to apply them to a given situation.

Using that interpretation, God wanted to demonstrate his justice by pouring out his wrath on Hitler.  Therefore he allowed Hitler to run up an enormous wrath debt.

That makes no sense. He lived a life of luxury and power, had people grovelling at his feet right up until the end, died with the woman he loved, and will be remembered forever. Damn, I don't envy that one bit!

Not from an eternal perspective.  In the big picture, Hitler spent a lifetime earning wrath for himself, and will pay the consequences forever.

God is indeed concerned about the state of affairs here on Earth, but he's far more concerned about the state of affairs after death.  The "God works in mysterious ways" aphorism is a clumsy way of saying "look at the big picture".

If God created the universe, he couldn't have been contained by it.  QED.

The Universe is everything that exists. Therefore, if God is not within the Universe, he does not exist.

And suppose the universe isn't all that exists?  The universe is a closed system.  God is not bound by the universe's rules, nor is he measureable from within the universe.  How can he be part of the universe then?

I believe in other gods.  I just don't worship them.

I'm genuinely perplexed by that statement. Could you elaborate?

Ah, I like this topic, as it's quite interesting.

The Biblical definition of the common noun "god" seems to be "a heavenly being with great authority and power".  Lucifer is referred to as a god in many places.  Other Biblical gods include Dagon, Moloch, and Ba'al.  Whenever God (capital G) is referred to in this context, he is called "Most High God" or "God Almighty".  Literally, the God above all other gods; the one with the most power and authority.

God created the other "gods" as well as angels and people.  He has assigned various roles and responsibilities to different parts of his creation, but he reserves all worship for himself.

So I'm not ruling out the existence of Allah, or Brahma, or whoever (particularly given events like this).  I simply choose to worship only the Most High God.

[Mefustae]

Maybe so.  But I find there's sort of a symbiotic relationship between God and faith... you start with baby steps and then progress.  The more faith you have, the more you see of God, and vice versa.  It's like trust.

One may also argue that the more you believe, the more open you are to religious suggestion. Indeed, the more zealous you are, the more you see God, but that doesn't mean God is appearing to you, only that you see God in everything around you; as in the change is subjective, rather than objective.

That's no contradiction; that's a demonstration of justice.  Certain civilizations deserved to be destroyed, so God destroyed them.

But that feels like such a cop-out. It's akin to saying "it's all just a part of God's plan" when something terrible happens. Granted, one can cite instances of God wiping out 'evil' civilisations, but it all comes back to the issue of natural disasters; evils that are not in any way applicable to the evils of men, and in most cases just take out the dumb sons-of-b****es unlucky enough to be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. How can 230,000 deaths via one freak disaster be in any way applicable to any form of "justice"?

The real paradox is trying to reconcile mercy and justice, and figuring out how to apply them to a given situation.

That's simple; mercy for Christians, justice for every other poor bastard.

Not from an eternal perspective.  In the big picture, Hitler spent a lifetime earning wrath for himself, and will pay the consequences forever.

Okay, you've got me there. I was kinda hoping when I wrote about it initially that you wouldn't pick up on that sizable flaw in my logic.

God is indeed concerned about the state of affairs here on Earth, but he's far more concerned about the state of affairs after death.  The "God works in mysterious ways" aphorism is a clumsy way of saying "look at the big picture".

But even you must admit the "big picture" nowadays is looking rather grim. I'm fine with people believing that God exists, but to believe in the face of all logic that that very same God is somehow "looking out" for us is pure folly.

And suppose the universe isn't all that exists?  The universe is a closed system.  God is not bound by the universe's rules, nor is he measureable from within the universe.  How can he be part of the universe then?

I realise it's pointless to debate the mechanics of an extra-universal being as you would suggest, but how can a being outside of a given reality interact with components within said reality?

We've all seen in sci-fi when people get shifted to alternate dimensions and can't interact with anything in our dimension! It's just common sense, people!

The Biblical definition of the common noun "god" seems to be "a heavenly being with great authority and power".  Lucifer is referred to as a god in many places.  Other Biblical gods include Dagon, Moloch, and Ba'al.  Whenever God (capital G) is referred to in this context, he is called "Most High God" or "God Almighty".  Literally, the God above all other gods; the one with the most power and authority.

God created the other "gods" as well as angels and people.  He has assigned various roles and responsibilities to different parts of his creation, but he reserves all worship for himself.

Wow, I never realised that Christianity had its own little pantheon of Gods. Sure, the pyramid of power is a little more pointed, but it's a pantheon nonetheless. With all the monotheistic scripture, I never would have suspected multiple Gods within the faith. Very interesting indeed.

Also; Moloch rocks. Why couldn't they get this guy ingame! Ooooh, so very Bronze-age.



Edit: Woah. Take a look at the picture, it's says "Raumen over Capella"!! How's that for a freaky coincidence, eh?

[Colonol Dekker]

Surely, Concept of god dont actually exist in the universe, They are simply concepts, Or is that too theological?

[Kazan]

I said you can't prove the existence or nonexistence of God, but you can find evidence to support it.  Faith isn't blind; it's the act of taking a step forward based on incomplete knowledge.

then do so - as of yet your types have totally and utterly and completely failed to find one scrap of evidence

Also, you said God exists outside the universe. Where in the Bible, or any previous holy books, does it say that?

If God created the universe, he couldn't have been contained by it.  QED.

so sayeth you - fallicious argumentum ad verecundiam

humans create cars, but they can be contained by them

Christians: you show me why you disbelieve in every god but yours, and I'll show you how easy it is to simply go one more.

I believe in other gods.  I just don't worship them.

that's a contradiction

[Wobble73]

Also, you said God exists outside the universe. Where in the Bible, or any previous holy books, does it say that?

If God created the universe, he couldn't have been contained by it.  QED.

so sayeth you - fallicious argumentum ad verecundiam

humans create cars, but they can be contained by them

You're talking about things as they are following the laws of nature but that does not allow for the supernatural, which, lets face, an omniescent, omnipotent being such as a god is!

[Kazan]

You're talking about things as they are following the laws of nature but that does not allow for the supernatural, which, lets face, an omniescent, omnipotent being such as a god is!

you make a logical error

the "laws of nature" don't disallow the supernatural, the supernatural is by definition "beyond nature" and nature is all of existance in this context - so in this context "supernatural" are things "beyond existance"

The problem of evil is the problem of reconciling the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent God with the existence of a world full of evil and suffering. If God is omniscient then he knows how to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. If God is omnipotent then he is able to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. If God is benevolent then he wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. But if God knows how to, is able to and wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering, then why does he not do so?

[edit]
here is the quote I was looking for!

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?” - Epicurus

[Wobble73]

Because we would not know evil, and if we did not know evil then we would not know good either, it's the difference between joy and sorrow. If we did not know sorrow then we would have nothing to compare our joy to and therefore not be able to appreciate it. We could all go around doing good deeds all day and no-one would appreciate it then what would the point of life be? To procreate? what for if there is nothing to live for? Why bring a child into such a miserable existense? And I'm sure we would be miserable and start complaining to God about how boring life is, they say Variety is the spice of life, I say it's the very essence if life!

[Kazan]

then, by your own words, god is malevolent.

there need be no purpose to life - people feel the need to think there is one, but that is just a feeling - and emotion.  They are searching for a crutch.  Life simply is - it is not good, it is not bad. 

Life without a crutch is not miserable as you assert it to be.  I am a very happy preson, I enjoy life, I am getting married (secularily... lol I typoed that as sexularily ) .

Only those without the backbone to stand up without their crutches view the world of the crutchless as miserable.  From the perspective of the crutchless, we see over your individuals heads as you are bent - we can see the sea of those desperately gripping their crutches for emotional safety, afraid to step away and stand for themself and to accept that some questions do not have answers as they are not a valid question to ask.

[Wobble73]

then, by your own words, god is malevolent.

there need be no purpose to life - people feel the need to think there is one, but that is just a feeling - and emotion.  They are searching for a crutch.  Life simply is - it is not good, it is not bad. 

Life without a crutch is not miserable as you assert it to be.  I am a very happy preson, I enjoy life, I am getting married (secularily... lol I typoed that as sexularily ) .

Only those without the backbone to stand up without their crutches view the world of the crutchless as miserable.  From the perspective of the crutchless, we see over your individuals heads as you are bent - we can see the sea of those desperately gripping their crutches for emotional safety, afraid to step away and stand for themself and to accept that some questions do not have answers as they are not a valid question to ask.

Oh I quite agree with you in a way! I said what I said, because I understand peoples need to believe in the supernatural and like I said a god does not follow the the laws of nature, (at least as we know them). I am not religious what-so-ever, but I do keep an open mind, I am willing to hear what they have to say, it's just I am not convinced as yet!



I also like to play devils advocate sometimes!