[Mefustae]

You say that like it was Benedict's fault this happened and not the fanatics fault? There's just no justification to go shoot and bomb a church or any other building for that matter.

It's not his fault? What he said just gave extremists another reason to be assholes, a reason that they shouldn't have. Benedict isn't above all blame here.

God I hate fanatics and other extremists of any religion and otherwise. Here we have Windrunner who's perfectly reasonable man, yet those damn fanatics will do nothing but stain his religion and half of the world against them.

I completely agree. But one must remember that the man who assumes all members of a given religion have taken to the streets in anger is just as bad.

[Fury]

If it wasn't Benedict, it would've been someone else sooner or later. That much is certain.

[Mefustae]

Indeed, but the freakin' Pope should've known better. He represents an entire religion, so he should be watching his tongue in the current climate more than anyone.

[Herra Tohtori]

I think Benedict has said that he is sorry that some people misinterpreted his words.

Goddamnit, he quoted ancient Byzantine Emperor; he didn't express his own opinions by saying what he said. AND, he did say that it was a quotation while giving his speech; in fact he said it twice.


I do not like the man, but neither I like the fact that religious leaders of islamic world incite their pack of uneducated people to jihad every time something like this happens.

I dont blame islam any more than other religions for being violent - hell, ANY religion can be seen violent in certain circumstances: The Crusades, Northern Ireland, Invasion of Americas (particularly what conquistadors did)...

Religion is just a superficial reason for violence, and it is also used as leverage by religious leaders to get people act like some people want.

The religious islamic leaders know that their own position in power is strengthened every time they manage to make their population go rabid for the Religion's Cause. In those situations, their people no longer thinks clearly and sees what is actually behind the fact that their economy is crap and thus, their lives suck.

I despise the religious leaders of islamic world for acting like this. They are not worthy leaders, but unluckily they are smart enough to know what is their only way of staying in power - and that is to make sure that their pack of unknowing sheep never gets educated, never gets any other purpose for lifing than maybe gettign a better life after death, and CERTAINLY no other purpose to life than "living along islam", including to se everything that high religious leaders say as truth that must be obeyed...


Oh and about Benedict sucking balls compared to John Paul II: John Paul was a senile old man, had been for years. Benedict had probably effectively been leader of catholic church for years.

I don't really like him, due to very conservative values he represents. I hope he died soon and the Catholic church would elect someone who actually had a clue about some actual problems and stopped the ridiculous negatization of birth control (among other things).

[Jetmech Jr.]

It was a quote, and he stressed that it wasn't his own words. nor was he expressing his own views on the subject.

On the same note, a number of muslim groups have been expressing their outrage at this by shooting up churches and lobbing grenades into them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060916/wl_mideast_afp/vaticanpopeislampalestinianunrestchurch_060916150653

Which could have been avoided had Benedict not given them justification. The cartoon debacle demonstrated clearly how violent muslim extremists can get over such trivial issues, and moreover that extremists can manipulate the masses into a furor quite easily.

So, does Benedict plan to apologise or what?

So? It's not the worlds job to back down because these muslims can't take criticism of their own faith the same way Christianity and EVERY OTHER ****ING PERSON takes their ****. **** them.

And he's already apologized for the way in which his words have been taken by the muslims (mef, have you even read the speech in question?). But, guess what? Surprise surprise, their still burning effigys of the pope saying "HE ISN'T SORRY ENOUGH!"

Were it up to me, they'd be shot on sight.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2006/09/18/pf-1857570.html

[Mefustae]

So? It's not the worlds job to back down because these muslims can't take criticism of their own faith the same way Christianity and EVERY OTHER ****ING PERSON takes their ****. **** them.

The Pope represents the entire Catholic faith, meaning anything he says the entire Catholic faith says. What he said could have obviously been twisted around to work to the advantage of fanatics who incite violence, and he should have known that. I'm not saying that criticising the muslim faith should be a societal taboo, what I am saying is that the head of a ****ing religion show some bloody tact.

Think of it like this; what do you think admins mean when you tell forumites "not to feed the trolls"?

Now, i'm going to avoid the "Christians wouldn't do this!" statement so as to prevent a flamewar, so i'll advise you to steer clear of any comparisons.

And he's already apologized for the way in which his words have been taken by the muslims (mef, have you even read the speech in question?). But, guess what? Surprise surprise, their still burning effigys of the pope saying "HE ISN'T SORRY ENOUGH!"

My apologies, I was not aware that he had already apologised. Indeed, the fact that rioting continues shows suggested to me that he had in fact not apologised, and hence my ignorance. I agree, the rioting should have stopped, and will probably wind down in the coming weeks. However, I must reiterate that this shouldn't have even happened had Benedict kept his wits about him.

Edit:

On Sunday, Benedict said he was "deeply sorry" over any hurt caused by his comments made in a speech last week, in which he quoted a medieval text characterizing some of the Prophet Muhammad's teachings as "evil and inhuman" and calling Islam a religion spread by the sword.

Benedict said the remarks came from a text that didn't reflect his own opinion, but he did not retract what he said or say he was sorry he uttered what proved to be explosive words.

See, that sounds like he didn't actually apologise for what he said, only for the damage caused. Those protesting always make a point to say they want the Pope to apologise personally for the insensitive things he said, not just for the "damage caused", which can be take as an apology to christians while ignoring islamic protesters. Again, I detect a distinct lack of tact in his actions.
 

Were it up to me, they'd be shot on sight.

I don't think I need to insult your intelligence by pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of that statement.

[BlackDove]

Pope just trying to score some attention because nobody gives a **** about him.

Pass.

[Blaise Russel]

The world is a sad place, this thread just reflects this. Dont' blame the thread.

To the contrary, the thread reflects some depressing attitudes.



While we're at it:

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=195656604&p=y956573yx

The leader of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood took a softer stance, saying the Islamic political group’s relations with Christians should remain “good, civilised and co-operative”.

“While anger over the Pope’s remarks was necessary, it shouldn’t last for long because while he is the head of the Catholic church in the world, many Europeans are not following it,” Mohammed Mahdi Akef said. “So what he said won’t influence them.”

Oof.

Also, Benedict keeps up the good work even while apologising:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1874891,00.html

Yet only minutes after saying that he was "deeply sorry" about the reaction to his earlier remarks, he cited a passage from the New Testament highlighting the gulf between Christian and Jewish attitudes to the crucifixion of Jesus.

...

In reply to his rhetorical question, he quoted a verse from St Paul, the New Testament author most often accused of anti-semitism.

In the Italian translation, used by the Pope, it runs as follows: "We preach the crucified Christ - a scandal for the Jews, a folly for the pagans".

God damn it, Mr. Ratzinger.

[Herra Tohtori]

Pope just trying to score some attention because nobody gives a **** about him.

Yeah... ***ing trolls, now they are invading RealLife(TM) too.


We need to get Islamic world access to Internet, that way they will soon learn not to care about trolls (too much).

 

[Fury]

Also, Benedict keeps up the good work even while apologising:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1874891,00.html

Yet only minutes after saying that he was "deeply sorry" about the reaction to his earlier remarks, he cited a passage from the New Testament highlighting the gulf between Christian and Jewish attitudes to the crucifixion of Jesus.

...

In reply to his rhetorical question, he quoted a verse from St Paul, the New Testament author most often accused of anti-semitism.

In the Italian translation, used by the Pope, it runs as follows: "We preach the crucified Christ - a scandal for the Jews, a folly for the pagans".

God damn it, Mr. Ratzinger.

I can't but laugh.

[Prophet]

It seems that the pope is the only one with sufficent set of brass balls to stand up to the ****ing asswipe muslims. Sorry, excluding the sane ones who act like civilized people. Anyway, what the pope said cannot possibly be offending to any sane person. He quoted some guy about ancient history, and muslmis get all ape**** and start blowing **** up? Had I said that last week, no one would have belived me.
And now you people blame the pope for for this? For not apoligizing for something that wasn't even wrong in the first place? Apoligize and growel for the muslims who got all pissed for the most ridiculous reason? Leading figure of a worldwide religion, letting a bunch psychoes from some other religion to tell him what to do (again exluding the sane ones)?

Benedict has done nothing wrong regarding this incident. The people who blow up churches are the ones who you should whine about. There is also nothing Benedict can do about this what he hasn't already done. He asked "would you guys get a grip and stop blowing my people up?" And the reply was blowing and shooting things. Yeah sure, the pope should have shut up. He should have just sit quietly in his throne room. Becasue he can't say anything public becuse the muslims might get mad. , lets all convert so there isn't no one left to make the muslims mad. Because if someone makes muslims mad, he is responsible for all the damage the mad muslims do, not the muslims who did it.

[IPAndrews]

Pope Nazi the Third Reich went up enormously in my estimation after his comments. He has balls. I like - balls.

[Mefustae]

It seems that the pope is the only one with sufficent set of brass balls to stand up to the ****ing asswipe muslims.

Right, because when a muslim bombs a church, everyone just sits on their hands and does nothing. Stop being so ****ing melodramatic.

Sorry, excluding the sane ones who act like civilized people.

What, you mean the vast, vast majority of all muslims?

Anyway, what the pope said cannot possibly be offending to any sane person. He quoted some guy about ancient history, and muslmis get all ape**** and start blowing **** up? Had I said that last week, no one would have belived me.

Muslim fanatics always go ape-**** over the smallest things, so any sane person should realise the head of the Catholic faith calling Islam a religion "spread by the sword" - whether or not it was in a quote or whatever, he said it - is going to cause trouble. By saying it in so many words, he just gave fanatics and extremists fuel with which to spread their perverted view of Islam.

And now you people blame the pope for for this? For not apoligizing for something that wasn't even wrong in the first place? Apoligize and growel for the muslims who got all pissed for the most ridiculous reason?

Who is saying he must grovel? What is so hard about him going out on the balcony and saying "yeah, sorry about those statements, they were a bit off, and I shouldn't have said them"? If those simple words can contribute to ending, or even lessening the violence, then what exactly is so horrific about the Pope uttering them?

...Leading figure of a worldwide religion, letting a bunch psychoes from some other religion to tell him what to do (again exluding the sane ones)?

Good thing you put that little tag on the end, else you would have looked like a ****ing racist pig and therefore no better than those who are inciting the violence.

Benedict has done nothing wrong regarding this incident.

Yes. He. Has.

The people who blow up churches are the ones who you should whine about.

So, you're saying that everyone is completely ignoring all violence and focussed entirely on the actions of the Pope? Come again?!

There is also nothing Benedict can do about this what he hasn't already done.

Yes there is. He can apologise.

Yeah sure, the pope should have shut up. He should have just sit quietly in his throne room. Becasue he can't say anything public becuse the muslims might get mad. , lets all convert so there isn't no one left to make the muslims mad. Because if someone makes muslims mad, he is responsible for all the damage the mad muslims do, not the muslims who did it.

Once again, get a grip man. Stop being so bloody melodramatic.

[Jetmech Jr.]

See, that sounds like he didn't actually apologise for what he said, only for the damage caused. Those protesting always make a point to say they want the Pope to apologise personally for the insensitive things he said, not just for the "damage caused", which can be take as an apology to christians while ignoring islamic protesters. Again, I detect a distinct lack of tact in his actions.

He apologized for HOW HIS WORDS WERE TAKEN, emphasising that they were not his own words, nor his own views about the Muslim faith. That is all he needs to apologize for, unless you are suggesting he should never ever say anything that could be misconstrued as an insult (I.E. never say anything at all, have his own opinion, express himself. Y'know, not be a human being). God forbid he quote someone, cuz 'he should know better than to mess with the muslims!'

Yes. He. Has.

No. He. Hasn't. Just because most of Europe is scared sh*tless by the middle east doesn't mean the Pope has to be so much so that he can't even quote an opinion he doesn't explicitly share.

[Mefustae]

He apologized for HOW HIS WORDS WERE TAKEN, emphasising that they were not his own words, nor his own views about the Muslim faith.

Just like the cartoon thing, fanatics manipulate the situation and have convinced the ignorant masses that listen to them that the Pope was voicing his own opinions. It doesn't matter under what intention he said it, only that he said it, and thus handed over some nice, juicy justification to those who would use it to incite violence.

That is all he needs to apologize for, unless you are suggesting he should never ever say anything that could be misconstrued as an insult (I.E. never say anything at all, have his own opinion, express himself. Y'know, not be a human being). God forbid he quote someone, cuz 'he should know better than to mess with the muslims!'

He has apologised for the reaction, which can be taken not as an apology not to the Muslim protestors, but to those on the recieving end of the violence. If he just apologises for what he actually said and retracts it in full, it would go toward ending the violence.

I'm not saying he should never open his mouth. I'm not saying he can't have his own opinion. I am saying that he show some tact in not giving extremist ****tards exactly what they want.

No. He. Hasn't.

He made insensitive comments which could be easily twisted by fanatics to incite violence. Inadvertant? Pretty much. But it's still a mistake that he should apologise for.

Just because most of Europe is scared sh*tless by the middle east doesn't mean the Pope has to be so much so that he can't even quote an opinion he doesn't explicitly share.

Since when has Europe been "scared ****less" by the Middle East? For the past couple thousand years the Middle East has been safely under the thumb of the European powers. Hell, most of Europe isn't even Catholic, and quite obviously hasn't got anything to fear.

[Prophet]

So are you saying that a pope, president, minister, general, god, anyone must first and fore most, above all else, consider if what he is about to say will offend some muslims?

If I had read Benedicts speech before him, I couldn't have quessed there would be such an uproar. At most I would have taken the quote as an interesting historical refrence. If I would view it from a muslim point of view, well it doesn't matter because it's ancient history! So if you would take alook at the previous post and figure out whos the melodramatic one.

Perhaps I start requesting an apology from HLP staff and go blow up my neighbours garage.

[Ford Prefect]

All parties involved are wrong and stupid. The Pope is wrong for implying that Islam is more violent than his own ****ing religion, and the angry Muslims are wrong because they think protesting is going to make anyone take them seriously. Everyone needs to stop, take a deep breath, and come to terms with their own insignificance.

But they won't.

[Mefustae]

So are you saying that a pope, president, minister, general, god, anyone must first and fore most, above all else, consider if what he is about to say will offend some muslims?

They do already. Moreover, they make sure nothing they say will overtly offend Blacks, Chinese, Christians, the Irish, etc.

It's just common sense, and how you survive in the political landscape. You make statements that offend large groups of people, you're asking for it.

If I had read Benedicts speech before him, I couldn't have quessed there would be such an uproar. At most I would have taken the quote as an interesting historical refrence. If I would view it from a muslim point of view, well it doesn't matter because it's ancient history!

Then it's a good thing you're not the Pope's speech-writer. Historical reference is one thing, but calling Islam barbaric and 'spread by the sword alone' in the current political and social climate where muslims as a whole [and especially muslim extremists] feel persecuted by the world is just plain stupid. When you're a public figure, you make sure to avoid overtly provocative statements that can be easily turned around and bite you in the arse. Benedict slipped in this instance, and for that he should give an apology to the muslim world to take just a little-bit of power away from extremists and lessen the violence, even if it's just a little bit.

So if you would take alook at the previous post and figure out whos the melodramatic one.

I wasn't the one praising someone for 'finally standing up to those damn muslims!'. I wasn't the one lamenting that we should all convert to Islam lest we annoy more muslims. Sarcasm is one thing, but we can do without you laying on the melodrama.

Perhaps I start requesting an apology from HLP staff and go blow up my neighbours garage.

Oh, grow up.

All parties involved are wrong and stupid. The Pope is wrong for implying that Islam is more violent than his own ****ing religion, and the angry Muslims are wrong because they think protesting is going to make anyone take them seriously. Everyone needs to stop, take a deep breath, and come to terms with their own insignificance.

But they won't.

I fully concur with- and support this statement.

[Jetmech Jr.]

*Pope should apologize for accusing Muslim Faith of Violence!*

It's not a mistake. It's a quote. If he had said that those were his beliefs, you'd have a point. As it is, all he did was quote ancient texts that did not reflect his own beliefs but were used to demonstrate a point, and then you act like he did some big crime. Why don't you just accuse me of being a nazi, or being insensitive to Germans if I use a quote from Hitler to denounce prejudice? It would make about as much sense.

The only ones in the wrong here are the bastards who take the sentence out of context.

[BlackDove]

I like - balls.

Good for you.