Author Topic: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning  (Read 7633 times)

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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
My biggest problem with psychology is that it seems like it's trying to fill in the blanks where neurological science hasn't caught up yet. There's so much we still don't understand about the way in which the physical brain functions, and we're trying to form all these theories about behavior without the nuts and bolts. I think that in the future, we'll see brain science render certain fields of psychology and philosophy obsolete. (And believe me, it hurts me to say that because epistemology is an amazing subject.)
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Offline Kazan

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
To be fair, although this sounds all very interesting, most modern psychology is just a bunch of self-righteous bullsh*t. In this I agree with Feynman.

tell that to the millions of people who need pyschological treatment and are succesfully treated each year - like my fiancee who is on antidepressants because she used to have clinical depression and engaged in cutting

yeah... the tom cruises of the world can take a hike
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Offline Kazan

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
My biggest problem with psychology is that it seems like it's trying to fill in the blanks where neurological science hasn't caught up yet.

psychology IS part of neurological science... where did you get the impression that they're seperate?

There's so much we still don't understand about the way in which the physical brain functions, and we're trying to form all these theories about behavior without the nuts and bolts.

you don't need to know the functioning of a black box to figure out what outputs you getgiven specific inputs after you perform enough prodding


Quote
I think that in the future, we'll see brain science render certain fields of psychology

psychology is brain science....
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
To be fair, although this sounds all very interesting, most modern psychology is just a bunch of self-righteous bullsh*t. In this I agree with Feynman.

tell that to the millions of people who need pyschological treatment and are succesfully treated each year - like my fiancee who is on antidepressants because she used to have clinical depression and engaged in cutting

yeah... the tom cruises of the world can take a hike

Yes, I would tell them if I had the means to.

And to quote Feynman:

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It's a great game to look at the past, at an unscientific era, look at something there, and say have we got the same thing now, and where is it? So I would like to amuse myself with this game. First, we take witch doctors. The witch doctor says he knows how to cure. There are spirits inside which are trying to get out. ... Put a snakeskin on and take quinine from the bark of a tree. The quinine works. He doesn't know he's got the wrong theory of what happens. If I'm in the tribe and I'm sick, I go to the witch doctor. He knows more about it than anyone else. But I keep trying to tell him he doesn't know what he's doing and that someday when people investigate the thing freely and get free of all his complicated ideas they'll learn much better ways of doing it. Who are the witch doctors? Psychoanalysts and psychiatrists, of course.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
There's so much we still don't understand about the way in which the physical brain functions, and we're trying to form all these theories about behavior without the nuts and bolts.

you don't need to know the functioning of a black box to figure out what outputs you getgiven specific inputs after you perform enough prodding

And yet, strangely, that theorem of understanding hasn't worked too well for neural networks....

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
you don't need to know the functioning of a black box to figure out what outputs you getgiven specific inputs after you perform enough prodding
But you won't know why you get those results, and without the why, all you have is a set of correlations. And that's what current psychology seems to give us. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for psychology and don't at all consider it "pseudoscience", but it's not enough to be able to say that when "A" happens you'll get "B" as a result. We haven't yet been able to reduce the science of behavior to the most basic biological level-- the level that concretely describes, in physical terms, why certain results correspond to certain input. That's the distinction I'm talking about between behavioral science and neuroscience. Again, I would strongly disagree with someone who says that modern psychology is bull****-- I just think, from what I can see, that the science of behavioral patterns is a few steps ahead of the science of the physical brain. And I think that this century will see a convergence of those fields, with certain questions regarding the mind eventually becoming obsolete.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
I dunno about you guys, but my power level is well over 700. :lol:

Seriously, what do you get from saying that you're at a 'higher level of reasoning' than your ideological foes?
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Online TrashMan

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
Psychiatrists are either for people who have some mental disorders (shizofrenia, etc..) or those who can't face their own problems...

Weakmined poeple...
In my country, a psychaitrist would starve to death due to lack of work. A avergae citizen here is far saner than one for US.
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Offline achtung

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
I dunno about you guys, but my power level is well over 700. :lol:

Seriously, what do you get from saying that you're at a 'higher level of reasoning' than your ideological foes?

For Kazan, I think it's this little thing poking out of his pants.   :p
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
Psychiatrists are either for people who have some mental disorders (shizofrenia, etc..) or those who can't face their own problems...

Weakmined poeple...
Forgive me if I conclude from this statement that you've never experienced real depression, because I can assure you that there are times in many people's lives where the truly dependent aspect of being human becomes all too apparent. I strongly caution you against assuming that someone who can't face life alone is weak just because you've been fortunate enough not to need help.
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Offline Kazan

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
 :mad2: trashman if we ever meet in real life, i'm going to stomp a mudhole in your ass for that statement - you just insulted my fiancee

half the people in this ****ing thread don't know **** about this science - and you're the worst of them - you just insulted my fiancee you ****ing asshole

weakminded she is not - medications are for CHEMICAL imbalances in the brain you farking moron - she has 100x the willpower that you have and 100x the intelligence, but she also has a MEDICAL CONDITION that you're too ****ing stupid and bigoted to understand

you ****ing disgust me

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the rest of you ragging on pyschology: you clearly have never taken a ****ing psychology course as you clearly don't know wtfh you're taking about - the studies in psychology hold up to the unmodified standards of scientific evidence.

bunch of uneducate twats weighing in on a subject they don't understand

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[edit]
and STOP CONFUSING PSYCHIATRY AND PYSCHOLOGY
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 09:32:59 pm by Kazan »
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Offline achtung

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
the rest of you ragging on pyschology: you clearly have never taken a ****ing psychology course as you clearly don't know wtfh you're taking about - the studies in psychology hold up to the unmodified standards of scientific evidence.

bunch of uneducate twats weighing in on a subject they don't understand

I'm not ragging on Psychology, I'm just saying you're taking it and applying it to make a certain group appear better than another, when if fact, they are both the same.
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Offline Kazan

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
I'm not ragging on Psychology, I'm just saying you're taking it and applying it to make a certain group appear better than another, when if fact, they are both the same.

no, you assume that i am - but i am not - i made an observation and a bunch of people instead of asking for clarification instead assumed i was trolling - and several just came to troll

[edit]
lol

Quote
[21:37] Nukebomb Overkill: most people dont understand stupidity
[21:38] Kazan: you don't know the history of stupidity!
[21:38] Kazan: i do!
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
Well, there's something to what you're saying. (Ignoring all the "trolling" and AA-fire directed against said trolls) But morals are sort of arbitrary. I mean, they evolve. As society changes, morals change. And morals are, in effect, just how society keeps itself together. So there is truth--merit even--to the level one stuff... as far as evolution goes (do not start to debate evolution now (unless Kazan approves)).

What it all comes down to (the way I see it) is preservation (and benefit) of the species. If something helps the species, or society (the current state of the species), then society benefits (or is able to go on doing what it did).

So, in conclusion... I don't really have a point. I'm just trying to get some ideas out there.

But, since this thread isn't about me, I guess I'll take a side on this issue. Kazan, that first post, though maybe not intentional trolling, was very provocative. Neocons = bad (Immoral? Probably.), the average conservative... ignorant or hypocritical, maybe. Immoral? Idunno.

 

Offline Kazan

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
not immoral - just mired in a less-advanced moral thinking mode based upon authoritarianism
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Offline KappaWing

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
Rictor, I'd have to disagree with you there. [Referring to long post near beginning of thread] rebelliousness is not always synonymous with non-conformist, you seem to use the terms interchangably. It doesent "cut both ways", since the redneck you refer to has only acheived level 2 reasoning. He does not think for himself, his "culture" dictates his behavior. The "free-spirit" you refer to does think for himself, showed by how he deviates from other free spirits, therefore he does think for himself and can be given the honorary title of "rebellious", or in this case, level 3 moral reasoning.

not immoral - just mired in a less-advanced moral thinking mode based upon authoritarianism

Agreed, but is it nature or nurture that determines which level we achieve?

I think its nurture because it's usually a consequence of their upbringing (red states, blue states). It all depends if you were brought up to be open minded and freethinking, or closed-minded with a "do what yer told" mentality. Makes you wonder; If Kaz were born in a neocon family, would he turn out to be a neocon?  :eek2:
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
*insert post here*

Aside from the gigantic ad hominem that was damn near this entire post, and the fact your fiancee's condition has no bearing whatsoever on the topic of discussion...oh wait. Let's not leave that aside.

Because it's true. Quite frankly, I don't care. Perhaps it's because I'm locked into logical argumentative mode, since I just finished a paper, but perhaps that's a good place to be for this discussion. And perhaps I just naturally have no sympathy for arguments that are intended to provoke it. Whatever gains of ethos you may have made were in any case erased by the rather personal and definitely uncalled for nature of your attack on Trashman, followed by empty boasting. Jesus man, it's like you intended to undo whatever you may have done.

Do shut up.

While we're here, let's also point out that you made nice unproveable assertions...and to be quite frank, given what I know of you, I have to state that I severely doubt anyone with much willpower would spend any time around you at all. You are just that unpleasant, that superior, and that goddamn conceited. The only people who would associate with you willingly that I can imagine would be those who end up being controlled by you. Perhaps you are radically different in reality, where people can punch you in the face for acting like you do here. I hope so, for your fiancee's sake.

I'd also like to register, as someone who was diagnosed as clinically depressed once upon a time, my subscription to Marcus Aurelius. "No man suffers anything he is not fitted by nature to bear."
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
I'm going to have to disagree with the good emperor on that point.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
What a thread... :rolleyes:


To be honest, there are mainly two kinds of psychology, which both divide to several branches (search wikipedia if you want to know more).

First, there is the "traditional" psychology that tries to understand and define in abstract terms the inner workings of human mind on both conscious and subconscious levels. There are many approaches on this kind of psychology.

Then there is neuropsychology, which aims to understand how the structure and function of the brain relate to specific psychological processes that are defined by traditional psychology. It is closely related to neurological research, which is undisputedly scientific, and whatever one may think of traditional psychology and its scientific integrity or lack thereof, one should recognize the solid scientific basis of neuropsychology.

Neuropsychology works as an important link between psychology and psychiatry. Psychology in general is science of mind, while psychiatry is the practical medical science that aims to help people with mental problems.

Obviously, there are several approaches to that goal too. One of them is "chemical approach", which is most closely linked to neuropsychology and neurology. Many psychiatric conditions are a direct or secondary results of brain malfunction, like for example clinical depression which is characterized by lack of serotonine. Other approaches include psychotherapy and other more traditional treatments, which can be equally efficient as chemical approach, and in many cases even better. Regardless of how different psychiatric conditions are treated, lack of will power is more of a symptom than cause of disease in 99.9% of cases. The rest is statistical noise.


Okay, thats my part of trying to extinguish the flames on this thread about psychology. Back to actual topic.


So, levels of moral reasoning.

Quote
I postulate that most social conservatives are mired in Level 2 thinking, while most social liberals have attained level 3 reasoning.


I'm not sure of that kind of generalization. As you menton yourself, many people never reach the third level of Kohlberg's scale of moral reasoning.

I don't doubt there are many social liberals that have their values just as locked as conservatives, but just in different direction. In cases of people who don't go beyond conventional morals, the moral structure of their mindset depends more of environmental factors: home, friends, so forth. So, those people who don't go beyond level two and have conservative background end up having conservative morals (no surprize there), but also liberals' kids who don't go beyond level two end up having liberal set of moral beliefs.

After all there are bound to be just as fundamental liberals as there are fundamental conservatives. By fundamental liberal I mean people who have liberal values for the sake of them being liberal values and not because they've thought through matters and built their moral structure by themselves. So I don't think it's valid to say that "people who get into 3rd level end up being liberal and those stuck on 2nd level end up as conservatives". However, it might be useful to research how backgrounds affect on development of moral reasoning - whether the background and environment encourage or discourage it.

It's entirely possible and plausible to speculate that conservative environment doesn't really encourage people to develop their own moral structure, as there already is one set of moral beliefs that most people around (at least seem to) follow. However, liberal environment can do this to a kid also. I actually think that growing up in a diverse environment that has different sets of moral beliefs around will most likely lead to a person developing his or her own set of beliefs more often than growing up in an environment where everyone have same opinions about something. Controversies may help one to understand that there might not be one and only hole sacred opinion of God to follow, or alternatively that the most liberal option is not necessarily the best one in all cases, which would eventually lead to level three moral reasoning, when person forms his or her own opinions about things and acts accordingly.

So, I'd say that the percentage of people on levels 2 and 3 amongst liberals and conservatives is probably not that different. There might be slightly more people on level three amongst liberals, but there sure are "locked-minded" fundies on both groups, people who have conventional morality adjusted and fastened to the dominant morality set around them.


So, in short.

Level of moral reasoning doesn't make one something, and being something probably is not a good indication to defining one's level of moral reasoning either.

However, unilateral exposure to a certain moral structure - be it conservative or liberal - is likely to lead to adoption of that particular moral mindset, while being exposed to many points of view and multiple sets of morality, ie. learning to know different kinds of people, is more likely to lead to realization that one set of moral beliefs is not necessarily better than another, which would likely lead to post-conventional moral reasoning.


That's my view on this subject.


Then there is the question of whether or not postventional morality is "better" than conventional morality, or whether or not they contribute to worth of a human. I'd say the level of moral reasoning doesn't effect human worth, but it can affect the integrity of person's argumentation. Conventional morale easily falls into the same pit that those proverbial "ten billion flies that can't be wrong" came from. Arguments based on post-conventional morale do not face this problem - their worth is directly proportionaly to the aptness of the argumentee.
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Re: kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning
My biggest problem with psychology is that it seems like it's trying to fill in the blanks where neurological science hasn't caught up yet. There's so much we still don't understand about the way in which the physical brain functions, and we're trying to form all these theories about behavior without the nuts and bolts. I think that in the future, we'll see brain science render certain fields of psychology and philosophy obsolete. (And believe me, it hurts me to say that because epistemology is an amazing subject.)

So Physics renders Chemistry obsolete?

Different levels of abstraction and complexity. Neuroscience is about the physical workings. Psychology is about the mind. I suppose it's a bit like the difference between hardware and software; one can be understood with little to no knowledge of the other, but it helps to understand both.
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