Author Topic: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?  (Read 4739 times)

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Offline Aardwolf

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The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
This is a serious topic, not one of my joke topics.

I begin by asking a series of questions, and answering some of them, either with questions or other answers. Most of the answers you'll just have to accept, some of them are debates in themselves, but that is not the point.

Q: What do I like / want?
A: Stuff.
Q: Why is that?
A: Because during the course of my life I have made associations between what I like now and being happy.
Q: And what caused you to make those associations?
A: For most of them, they actually make me happy, or I have reasoned that they would make me happy.
Q: What about doing things just for the satisfaction of doing them?
A: Satisfaction is a form of happiness. It's just an arbitrary distinction.
Q: Who made that distinction?
A: People did.
Q: And why did people make that distinction?
A: Because it is satisfying to do so. They like it. It made them happy.
Q: So why do you want to do things that would make me happy?
A: Because I like to be happy.
Q: But why do you like to be happy?
A: Because if I didn't like being happy, I would avoid being happy, and if I succeeded in avoiding being happy, I would have avoided what I didn't like, and then I would have gotten what I wanted, which is to be unhappy, and getting what I want makes me happy.
Q: How is being happy a good thing?
A: It feels good.
Q: So desiring happiness leads to happiness, but desiring unhappiness is paradoxical, because you are happy that you have made yourself unhappy, and unhappy that you have made yourself happy. What desire would lead to permanent unhappiness and dissatisfcation then?
A: Idunno, maybe wanting to be sort of happy.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Well, if I want to be sort of happy, and I become sort of happy, then I am happy, but then I am unhappy because I am not precisely sort-of-happy. On the average, I become sort of happy, though, which makes me happy. So I suppose as time passed on it would either continue alternating or would approach happiness.
Q: So no desire being fulfilled will lead to definite (non-paradoxical) unhappiness. Are you saying that desires are associated with happiness and satisfaction?
A: Well, duh.
Q: Okay, that's a fair statement. What if we had no desires, then?
A: Well, I suppose if you don't want to have or not have anything, nothing will make you happy or unhappy.
Q: What about some outside influence making you happy?
A: Well, then we're talking about something like physical pleasure.
Q: But what if you desire not to have physical pleasure? Like if you're a monk or something?
A: If that's the case, you have a desire, a desire to avoid physical pleasure, and by doing so you are satisfying that desire, which is a good feeling.
Q: And is a "good feeling" "pleasurable?"
A: I guess.
Q: Then what if you have no sense of pleasure or displeasure? Would you still have desires?
A: I doubt it. I mean, there would be no motive.
Q: Would anything ever get done?
A: Not intelligently, no. I mean, you wouldn't even want to experiment to figure out what you are capable of doing. Sure, actions could be done on you, and you would be affected by them, but effectively you'd be a rock.
Q: So then, in individuals, there is a self perpetuating cycle?
A: Sure, that makes sense.
Q: But where does it start?
A: Well, if you buy into the creationist theory, then the first man had desires of some sort.
Q: And how did it get passed on?
A: Well, he obviously had the desire to reproduce, because he did so.
Q: And where did that desrie come from?
A: He must have been created with it?
Q: Okay, what if I don't buy into the creation theory? What does "evolution" say?
A: Then it started by some random fluke. I guess it is also possible that it was started by some outside intervention, but after that, the laws of nature were in charge.
Q: But what could be pleasurable to a molecule of DNA?
A: Nothing, it doesn't have a sense of pleasure.
Q: Then how can evolution work?
A: Well, it seems more like it would have been a combination of many smaller flukes, each individually of medium-low probability, but being possible in many many places for a long time. Eventually, it was bound to happen.
Q: What if it didn't happen?
A: Then we wouldn't be here.
Q: But don't you like being here?
A: Well, I do, but if I didn't exist there would never have been a me to complain. Come to think of it, if life had never formed, there wouldn't be any happiness or unhappiness, pleasure or displeasure, satisfaction or dissatisfaction, as a result of that lack of an event.
Q: So what's the point of doing what makes us happy if in the future if we don't do what makes us happy (following the instinct to perpetuate the species, in particular) nobody will be around to care?
A: Well, it makes us happy now, and it will make future generations happy.
Q: But if they aren't born, they won't mind not being happy, because they don't exist, and it's not like they're unhappy either. So how does it matter?
A: I suppose it doesn't, but I'm going to do it anyway.
Q: Why's that?
A: Because it's easier and more fun.
Q: And why do you want to do something that's easier or more fun?
A: Because that is the way my species is.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Are you Eliza?

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Who? Eliza, the computer program?

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Why do you mention computers?

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
 :lol:
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Well who is Eliza, then?

 
Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Eliza is not ELIZA.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Can someone please at least acknowledge that there is a paradox here?

 

Offline ZylonBane

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
The paradox of someone purporting to be smart not getting an Eliza joke?
ZylonBane's opinions do not represent those of the management.

 
Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
so the ultimate question remains:

If ther is no happiness, would anything get done, or if there was only unhappiness, would anything get done?

    |[===---(-         
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 =(||==)_
    ||_____|
 =(||==)
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    |[===---(-                             

"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

 

Offline kode

  • The Swedish Chef
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  • The Swede
    • http://theswe.de
Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
so the ultimate question remains:

If ther is no happiness, would anything get done, or if there was only unhappiness, would anything get done?

one needs not happiness, only the illusion of it.
Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
- Ambrose Bierce
<Redfang> You're almost like Stryke 9 or an0n
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
- Aldous Huxley
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 
Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
scary...

    |[===---(-         
    ||
 =(||==)_
    ||_____|
 =(||==)
    ||                   
    |[===---(-                             

"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

 

Offline kode

  • The Swedish Chef
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  • The Swede
    • http://theswe.de
Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
yeah.
Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
- Ambrose Bierce
<Redfang> You're almost like Stryke 9 or an0n
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
- Aldous Huxley
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 

Offline Mathwiz6

  • Pees numbers
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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
"The only thing that it does not matter if it is an illusion is consciousness"

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Can someone please at least acknowledge that there is a paradox here?

Please go on.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Snooze fest.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
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  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Can someone please at least acknowledge that there is a paradox here?

No.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

  

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
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  • Push.Pull?
Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
Yes.

Ha! I have created a paradox! You will never get me to agree with ngtm1r, and him with me. Therefore, who is right? There is a paradox of morals and decisions - if there is no right and wrong, then what must we judge our actions by? If we always strive to do the right or wrong thing, how do we know it's right or wrong?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
However, by not specifying what you were agreeing to intially, you have created the impression you were agreeing with me, thereby creating a totally different paradox from the one you desired to create.

HAHA!
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: The Unwinnable Undiscussed Argument of Morals is: Does Anything Matter?
you know you could have just said "your right"
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